Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[bcp477]

Heck, I am happy to get 2" groups at 10 yards ! I hardly ever have the chance to shoot at 25, so I probably would be very lucky to stay inside of 12" at that distance. I do have an S&W revolver that is marvelously accurate. From a machine rest, I swear that thing could put all of them through one hole - but I can't produce anything like that, myself.

[cbrick]

Heck, I am happy to get 2" groups at 10 yards ! I hardly ever have the chance to shoot at 25, so I probably would be very lucky to stay inside of 12" at that distance. I do have an S&W revolver that is marvelously accurate. From a machine rest, I swear that thing could put all of them through one hole - but I can't produce anything like that, myself.

There is a perfectly logical reason why you can't do it. It's because you have convinced yourself that you can't.

Now convince yourself that you can & learn what it takes to do it. My money is on your being a happy camper with your improvement and much quicker than you might think. Telling yourself you can't is convincing yourself to be defeated before you even begin. Learn how and stop defeating yourself.

Rick

[BigboreShooter]

I guess I need more practice!!!!

BigboreShooter

[cbrick]

I have no idea how much experience you may have Bigbore so don't take this as an insult but . . . More of the right kind of practice, practicing old bad habits won't help much.

Rick

[sw282]

l started shooting my 629 Magnum Hunter w/factory red dot 3 times a week beginning 2015. My best groups @25 yards are 50% smaller than they were before Christmas. l shoot 'revolver standing' class.
Turned 68 in Sept and made up my mind l am going to stick with shooting ONE gun.. Regardless of my score l will be having FUN and will look into the diopter lense... Thanks for the tip..


282

[MakeMineA10mm]

I'm the firearms instructor on my department and we qualify jointly with other departments over a week-long period at the Sheriff's Office range. I get to see dozens of shooters, several times a year, and have been a participant (not instructor, but for the last five years) in this for 25 years now. In all that time, I met and saw ONE natural great shot. He never practiced and routinely shot perfect scores.

I worked my butt off to become a good shot since I was 16, and I've got a shelf full of trophies. There are still people who beat me all the time. Not every day is a perfect, or even a good, day at the range. Still, I've got some good memories.

One was when we still carried revolvers, and after a naysayer said it couldn't be done, I started shooting a 3-lb coffee can at about 50 yards (it happened to be laying in the gravel pit we were at), and kept it rolling down the range to about 130 yards away. (Standing, 2-handed, unsupported, double-action.)

Another was at the county range for a night shoot, where I rang a 1/3-man sized steel silhouette at 100+ yards in the dark. (It was a black target and could not be seen. The quarter moon was behind the berm, creating a shadow where the target was. Even the instructor didn't know how I was hitting it. I think I hit it 12 times out of 15 shots. I finally confessed my secret a year ago to my then-Lieutenant, who witnessed it and is a member here at CB. It's one of my best memories, because there were 20 guys there whom I respected greatly, and they were convinced I was a 10mm Jedi Knight using my Glock 20 like Yota uses a light saber. )

It's amazing watching trained officers shoot, how many of them look at the target, make the gun go off, not watch the front sight, grip wrong, stand wrong, don't use dominant eye, etc, etc.

Yet, 15 years ago, with a similar cross-section of officers (poor to average shots), we ran an "Advanced Marksmanship" class. It was three days, started up close and concentrated on fixing/addressing fundamentals. Then moved back. We shot a LOT. We kept addressing fundamentals. We taught the concept of the "100-yard Pipe" and by the third day, we had everyone shooting 90% plus in the 8-ring of a B-27 target with at least 1 or 2 10-ring hits at 100 yards, standing unsupported with 2 hands. Now, these aren't great groups, per se, but it shows that concentrating on fundamentals, good instruction, and quantity practice can get any of you up to doing -- which is what the naysayers would consider "impossible," or "amazing." (By the way, none of those officers can still shoot as good, because they didn't maintain their proficiency... Shooting at this level is a perishable skill.)

[tazman]

I haven't heard of the "100 yard pipe" concept before. Is there a link available to more information on this?

[BigboreShooter]

CBrick
I agree completely!!!

BigboreShooter

[MakeMineA10mm]

I haven't heard of the "100 yard pipe" concept before. Is there a link available to more information on this?

Tazman,
I'm not sure, I never googled it. Essentially, one envisages an imaginary 3" pipe which starts around the 10-ring and extends back to the muzzle of your pistol. You must do the fundamentals (we ran through a quick checklist in our head), but the 100-yd pipe aspect was about keeping the muzzle of your pistol inside that pipe. This allows one to stay visually focused on the front sight while the subconscious keeps the muzzle aligned with the target.

Staying focused on the front sight and proper trigger control and break are all one needs to be a really good shot at 25-50 yards. Add in some other details, such as stance and grip, and with a little practice, one can be a great shot. Add in volume of practice and increasing challenges, and you may surprise yourself...

My secret for shooting the "invisible" black steel silhouette at night? First, I had the skill to hit it in daylight, so stance, grip, trigger control, front sight, etc. were good, and I practiced weekly or more back then. The "trick" was that I knew the target was in the corner of the backstop, where the north-south berm met the east-west berm. That crevice or seam where the 2 berms met was just visible, so I used that for windage. I also knew it was at chest/neck height, so if I kept my arms straight (parallel to the ground), elevation was good. To check my sight alignment, I aimed into the lighter moon-lit sky above the berm. Due to my skill level from all that practice back then, I could lock in my stance and just bring my arms down after lining up the sights, and when I knew my arms were at normal elevation, I squeezed off the shot. You just need to see the front sight, have great trigger control, and have solid fundamentals. You technically don't need to see your target.

[tazman]

I am not sure my fundamentals are sound but I don't know who to ask to find out around here. I do understand and practice my trigger control but it is my greatest weakness. I am getting better though. My groups are consistently half the size they were 6 months ago and those were smaller than the ones 6 months before that. Proper eye focus and hand steadiness I am working on. There are some limits to those.

You would think that being a state champion target archer would translate but it hasn't for me. At the time I stopped shooting my bow I could shoot smaller groups at 30 yards with my bow than I could with my scoped rifle offhand.

[kweidner]

It's all about PROPER repitition to learn a skill. I got to be an above average handgun hunter by purchasing a Taurus .22 revolver. Practiced cases of round using field positions.
The next couple years squirrell hunting that's all I would take. The first season or two I would have starved. Now it is nothing for a proper head shot.
Yes this one is scoped. I also practice out to 100 on my distance AR500 plate. I use the post of the crosshair in the leupold 2x and hit with boring regularity. I can do it off hand using both hands most of the time and rested I would say 95 percent or better depending in wind conditions. It can be done.
Leave the long guns home and depend on the handgun and you will make yourself a better shot. Ever heard the saying fear the man with one gun? There is a reason. I am guilty of moving from patform to platform. I have often thought of selling most of the collection and spend more time with just a few. It would probably make me an even better marksman.

[JSH]

Tazman, I did opposite of what you said. The bow greatly helped my bullseye shooting. Follow through. Just from having done somthing similar as you describe, I would say you are dropping the gun down after the shot, in order to see the target. Revolvers are a challenge for sure 5-8 different chambers for one gun. An auto theory should be more accurate. None the less it is very interesting to watch a bullseye match and see several shoot 290-299 averages. Just makes me shake my head.
Jeff

[44man]

Good information to get better but I still preach one thing over all else for long ranges. How accurate you load! You will never shoot good until you wring out the top accuracy your gun can do. You can practice forever with a bad load and stay miserable.
That is why I have worked so hard with revolvers and I know Rick has too. You can not shoot IHMSA with a load that does 4" at 25 yards.
My best group was from my 45-70 BFR, 2-1/2" at 500 yards but understand that load did 3/16" at 50 yards from a rest.
Then recoil, I know it bothers some so any pain from a grip has to go away. If it hurts, it takes too much grit to overcome. I have done it when a guy came to the range to shoot his SBH, the square trigger guard got me every shot when he let me shoot it. From Creedmore I hit a milk jug every shot at 200 yards with blood flying. He could not keep paper at 15 yards. I told him to remove the sharp edges or put Pachmeyer grips on it.
So it led me on a new course. I teach with a bigger gun so recoil is learned without pain, then a smaller gun is easy. I have made guys shoot my .500 first, then watched them take a can at 100 with a .454 off hand.
Learn with a .22 and if I hand you a .44 or .475, you will be lost with fear. Your brain will say "look out." A .22 is good to learn the trigger control but it is just not enough. I have never seen anyone move from a .22 to a .475 with control.

[FLHTC]

I wasn't a firm believer in revolver accuracy until I shot one that could produce it. Some might laugh but those who own, or owned one know exactly what I'm referring to. A Dan Wesson 15-2, proved to me that revolvers could to be made to shoot, right out of the box. Whatever factors came into play with their guns, and I assume it was the barrel design, worked and worked well. Bar none, the DW was the most accurate revolver I ever fired. A 2" group at 25 yards would be a bad day.

[44man]

I was one of the top archers in Ohio, belonged to the Eight Ball club and shot demos at the Cleveland Sportsman shows. Bow tuning is like loading. Tuning off and you throw shots. I was able to shoot a bare shaft to the bull at 60 yards. I figured out broad head tuning that Easton uses today. I made the first lighted bow sight for night owl shoots and dim light deer hunting.
I overcame buck fever and shot three deer my first season, Ohio, MI and PA. At the time it took an archer 17 years to get one.
Buck fever from a few friends is unbelievable. One can take the heart out of a deer target with his .44 all day but can not hit a deer. He shot one small deer in all these years, 270 rifle at 100 yards--GUT SHOT!
Don't overlook buck fever or pressure at a shoot. Competition can turn you to a rag and if you miss, you get worse. You need to relax and depend on the confidence of your gun and loads.
Casual shooting with friends with no pressure will make you better. Don't get up tight, shoot for fun but never stop looking for accuracy, that is too hard if under pressure.
One other thing I found is do not hold your breath when setting up to a target, keep breathing so your vision does not fail. Only at the very last should you control your breathing. Deep breaths will speed your heart so don't hog air. Keep breathing normal, let some out and hold.

[tazman]

44man
From your statement about the bare shaft it sounds like we were using the same or at least very similar bow tuning methods. I never read anything from Easton on bow tuning so I do not know what they use. I worked out my own method by studying how the bow worked. It worked for me anyway.
My biggest problem with handgun accuracy is a tendency to jerk the trigger when the sight crosses the bull. I don't do that with a rifle but do with a handgun. My revolver groups well from a rest. Much better than I do when shooting it offhand. I need to get steadier on target and control the jerk. When I do it right I hit center.
I really have to focus on control. If I focus on holding steady, I tend to jerk the trigger. If I focus on trigger control, the sights wander all over.
I often practice trigger control from a rest so I don't have to deal with the sight picture moving. Hard to focus on several things at once.

[Whiterabbit]

Learn with a .22 and if I hand you a .44 or .475, you will be lost with fear. Your brain will say "look out." A .22 is good to learn the trigger control but it is just not enough. I have never seen anyone move from a .22 to a .475 with control.

I have been forced to agree with this conclusion completely. also with the comment about comfy grips. The ability to hold my BFR "weak" (not quite tea-cupping, just 'weak') has been a major boon to my groups. It works because my hand is so stretched around the grips I chose that under recoil the gun actually gets tighter in my hand under recoil, not looser or breaking free! Meanwhile, my buddy who LOVED to shoot my BFR (with OEM grips) refuses to do so now, it's so uncomfortable for him. Interesting stuff.

but back to 22 vs heavy recoil, it was very clear I could practice with a 22 or even a 45acp till my eyes bled from focus and it wasn't going to help me simply due to recoil management. There is no replacement for range time with the exact gun and load you are using. None of this "put two light loads in there with three heavy ones" **** either. I'm not here to scare myself randomly when shooting, I am here to train my muscle memory to react properly when my trigger breaks at. Every. Single. Shot. To this end, I stopped shooting all loads except one, turned the BFR into a one-load, one-gun gun. I can use other loads later.

Having learned this lesson on the BFR but not understanding that it applies to ALL firearms, I bought a trainer 22 for my safari rifle. Both are CZ, both have the same stock config, same sights, they are nearly identical except the 22 is a little lighter (I've considered correcting even this). It's a TERRIBLE trainer. You can't put 100 rounds of 22 downrange using the same stance and grip on the rifle as will be used on the safari rifle and expect that to translate in any way when you have a 460 weatherby necked up to .510 in the chamber. Just doesn't work that way. The solution? Put on the big boy pants, put 20-40 rounds down range per range session, and shrug off the embarassment of everyone else watching me miss 40 times at the range for the first 10 range sessions, because after those first 400 rounds I will shoot that rifle better than they can shoot their scoped AR-15's.

[44man]

44man
From your statement about the bare shaft it sounds like we were using the same or at least very similar bow tuning methods. I never read anything from Easton on bow tuning so I do not know what they use. I worked out my own method by studying how the bow worked. It worked for me anyway.
My biggest problem with handgun accuracy is a tendency to jerk the trigger when the sight crosses the bull. I don't do that with a rifle but do with a handgun. My revolver groups well from a rest. Much better than I do when shooting it offhand. I need to get steadier on target and control the jerk. When I do it right I hit center.
I really have to focus on control. If I focus on holding steady, I tend to jerk the trigger. If I focus on trigger control, the sights wander all over.
I often practice trigger control from a rest so I don't have to deal with the sight picture moving. Hard to focus on several things at once.

Yes I have the same problem. It is very hard to control the trigger when the sights move around. Your first thought it to pull as the sights go past the bull. It is still best to ignore the movement and keep the trigger pull until the gun fires without aid from you. Anytime you make the gun go off, you will miss. Even speed shooters control the pull so as not to make the gun fire when wrong. They have my utmost respect. I used to be able to do it but that takes so much practice it gets out of hand. I could hold my pistol in my left hand and throw a bottle with my right hand, grab the pistol and break the bottle. A few days off and you start all over. That stuff goes away but trigger control will not unless you make the gun fire as it passes the target. It is VERY hard to control when the sights wander around. It is still best to add pull even when moving. It is why I hit moving deer easier then a standing deer. I need to lead and track without keeping the gun still.
It is easier to swing through a flying bird then to shoot a can off a post with a shotgun.
I do not make deer stop so I can shoot. The swing removes shakes. Even a walking deer is easier then a standing one. I seem to have a crazy built in lead as to distance, speed, or gun used. No thinking involved, just natural. The hardest thing for me is a still target. Then a rest, even from my knees is best.
I do it with a rifle too. I can hit a running deer at over 200 yards but play heck with one standing at 100. I find rifle fit to you really counts too. I make stocks to fit me but some factory stocks will never hit where I look. The best shotgun stock ever for me was the Ithaca 37. I shot many rifles off hand at 100 where I was so bad it was a laugh. I shot too many revolvers better.
It took years of revolver shooting deer to get over what my thoughts were. I kept looking at the stupid little gun and wanted a rifle stock but in the end, they work and I have full confidence now.
I prefer a walking deer that makes me move the gun instead of the shakes moving me.

[cbrick]

For those having trouble with revolver groups here are the single biggest tips you can get.

Revolvers are the MOST grip sensitive firearm you can shoot. Period! Compared with other action types such as a bolt action rifle they have very slow lock time and far slower barrel time. ANY change you make to the grip will make huge differences in point of impact every single time the grip is different. If you squeeze the grip slightly harder you WILL shoot low. If you ease up on the grip you WILL shoot high. If you move your hand up or down on the grip in the slightest you have changed the point of impact and WILL shoot high or low. If you move your hand right or left on grip you have changed the point of impact right or left. Even a 22 rimfire revolver will move in your hand upon recoil. It must be replaced in your hand exactly as it was on the previous shot. As an exaggeration you can almost squeeze the trigger, break the sears and put the revolver down on the bench BEFORE the bullet exits the muzzle, consider that with different gripping of the gun causing completely different muzzle rise before the bullet exits with each shot. You can see this effect at 25 yards, it is huge at 50 and with no more difference than changing your grip you will be lucky if you even keep it on the target at 100 much less group.

Next is follow through. Once again consider the slow barrel time and muzzle rise. Identical grip allowing consistent follow through on every shot is critical to grouping a revolver.

Next is grip size. The revolvers grip must fit your hand properly. If like me you have large hands the typical single action grips are almost impossible for me to shoot consistently with. All of my single action revolvers wear Pachs. Yep, I agree completely, ugly as sin but ask yourself this . . . Do you want to look good or do you want to shoot good? Pick one and if your answer is shoot good then fit the grips to your hand.

Rick

[44man]

Nothing more needs said after some of the best respond. You need look no farther.