Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[dubber123]

Well I'm glad someone else's considered results are a discussion point for a change. It took nerve for M Tecs to post that.....it really did.

It does not at all invalidate my very simple point, which is, to recap, that exceptional results claimed here are not to be considered the norm for production revolvers. Ross Seyfried called the true MOA revolver the "holy grail" of accuracy goals, and when he attempted it, a custom, highly tweaked revolver was what he used. If average production revolvers were capable of it, it wouldn't be much of a grail. A half inch revolver as the "typical" 50 yard accuracy situation from production guns would have rendered his search for the MOA revolver to be pointless as a half incher at fifty is pretty much just what Seyfried was searching for.

Pick apart M Tec's findings as you will. Just know that this got a lot more entertaining for me.

I remember that article by Seyfried well, I don't know if "highly tweaked" is a good description. Yes, it had a good barrel, but it also had a cylinder so poorly bored that he had to shoot 3 chambers and then reload them. 2 were well out of alignment. He also said he undertook the task as he had enough reports from credible sources of 1 inch 100 yard groups from various makers, (I believe he stated F/A, S&W, and Dan Wesson), that he thought it was worth looking into.

[44man]

44.... corroborating opinions say I just might know the production revolver after all. Read the thread and get up to speed. You'll just have to live with that one.

You don't. Some of mine have done 1" down to 1/2" at 100 yards. My old SBH with near 80,000 rounds will still do 1-1/4" at 100. But I got out of sorts one day and did this off hand at 100. Only 3 shots but 3/4".Attachment 130701Attachment 130702The hole in the top of the can was 5 shots from a revolver at 100 yards. The rest were from a friends rifle. That hole is under 1".
NO, you do not know. It has been only a few years since I could take pop cans at 100 to 200 yards with open sights. I cheated and used Creedmore. Darn sure I could out shoot a ransom every tick of the clock.

[wquiles]

Rick, Jim, got to practice today a little with my 44Mag Ruger:



This was my best 50 yard, red dot 1x scope, from the bench:



With my last 5x shots, I tried at the 100 yard target which I already had used for my 45-70 plinking loads, but since I had taken photos of the holes from the 45-70, I was able to "remove" by coping over white/green as necessary, to show just the slightly smaller 44Mag holes. At 100 yards the red dot covered the complete green area, so it was actually not hard to align it:



This of course pales in comparison to what you guys can do, BUT to me this was an eye opener as I would have not expected/tried this at 100 yards if it were not for this thread. Thank you guys!

Will

[cbrick]

Actually that's pretty decent for a red dot. I've got red dots on a couple of mine, had to just couldn't see the sights any more. At least with my red dots I learned that they just aren't for shooting groups. The dot is too large to get a consistent aim point. They get me on target which is the point I guess but I doubt I could have shot any better groups than your showing here.

So yeah, nice shooting. See what ya can do if ya put your mind to it? Keep at it and I'll bet you keep surprising yourself. And besides, what's more fun than a day at the range with your favorite wheel gun.

Rick

[35remington]

44.......again, a whole lotta consensus says I'm right. That may not sit well with you but nobody said you have to come away from this entirely comfortable with your claims.

[dtknowles]

44.......again, a whole lotta consensus says I'm right. That may not sit well with you but nobody said you have to come away from this entirely comfortable with your claims.

At this point, your point is noted and I wish you would stop. It is just annoying, like a broken record, go someplace else and go blah, blah, blah.

Tim

[35remington]

A simple response is best this far in as you don't have to wade through a rehash of the same stuff. At least we've spared you that. I have a feeling things are well played out at this point.

No no new ground is being broken, certainly. It's about as mature as a thread gets around here with the usual opinionated impasse.

[tazman]

35remington--We will just have to agree to disagree. Nothing I say will convince you and nothing you say, no matter how many times you repeat it, will convince me.
How about we just drop it and save the bandwidth?

[35remington]

If you want to kill the thread it's fine by me. If the other guys sign on so do I.

Some me of the premises needed contesting. I figure that's well accomplished by now.

[Seancass]

No, you do not, not even close. .... ...My work is for all to get an appreciation for a great gun, not to brag.

44man, you repeatedly say that it's not the gun, partly the shooter, and mostly all on the reloading bench. Please elaborate. I don't care about pictures of shotgun shells, I can believe you. What I'd love to actually see somewhere in this thread is some constructive advice on accurate revolver shooting and reloading. Do I Have to sort bullets and brass by weight to the grain? Perfect trim-to and only once-fired brass from the original gun? Clearly my usual tactic of slapping ammo together all willy-nilly isn't the correct path.

This thread has gone so far off topic I can't find any useful content. Just people saying no you can and yes I can. Seriously, that went on for 10 pages. It'd be nice if a mod cut out 15 pages of this thread, added about 4 posts of "No you can't" and "Yes I can" under the correct user names, and make this a workable thread again.

I'm not a good shot. I'm not even close. I have several guns that can do it, but I'm letting them down. I HAVE shot sub 4" and two 3" groups at 100 yards with a 44M Ruger SBH Hunter, 2x leupold. I know the gun can do better than that and I aim to prove it.

[Lonegun1894]

I'll let 44man elaborate on his reloading techniques, but here is my take on things. Consistency! Most people I know treat rifles with the expectation of accuracy, and load for consistency as they should. But the same people when loading for handguns seem to have an attitude that is one step above "if it goes bang and you don't blow yourself up, who cares". Load for the handgun like you do for the rifle. Trim brass if needed, weigh brass, weigh bullets, weigh powder charges. Work up loads like you do rifle loads. Try different powders, different primers, different bullets (or in our case here as casters, different molds, sized differently, different alloys, different hardnesses, etc.), don't forget that crimp makes a difference, temperature makes a difference, your grip makes a difference. Then there's wind speed and direction, light ( where the sun is affects where your glare is if you have any, how intense is the sunlight, is it cloudy, etc). How are you feeling and do you have any drugs in your system? I'm not talking illegal drugs, cause I expect better from this bunch, but are you on any meds? Even if it is a tylenol you took, or had an extra cup of coffee, maybe one less cup of coffee, allergy meds, etc. You all get the idea. This is a matter of everything you do affects your performance. If you keep things consistent, your performance will improve, and it will be noticeable. All the above goes for any firearm though, archery too, and not just a revolver.

And with 3-4" groups at 100 yds, you may not be the best shooter out there (and I'm not even anywhere close either), but you are WELL ABOVE AVERAGE. And since you can shoot like that now, and want to improve, I will bet you can cut those groups in half or even better.

[dhom]

i'll let 44man elaborate on his reloading techniques, but here is my take on things. Consistency! Most people i know treat rifles with the expectation of accuracy, and load for consistency as they should. But the same people when loading for handguns seem to have an attitude that is one step above "if it goes bang and you don't blow yourself up, who cares". Load for the handgun like you do for the rifle. Trim brass if needed, weigh brass, weigh bullets, weigh powder charges. Work up loads like you do rifle loads. Try different powders, different primers, different bullets (or in our case here as casters, different molds, sized differently, different alloys, different hardnesses, etc.), don't forget that crimp makes a difference, temperature makes a difference, your grip makes a difference. Then there's wind speed and direction, light ( where the sun is affects where your glare is if you have any, how intense is the sunlight, is it cloudy, etc). How are you feeling and do you have any drugs in your system? I'm not talking illegal drugs, cause i expect better from this bunch, but are you on any meds? Even if it is a tylenol you took, or had an extra cup of coffee, maybe one less cup of coffee, allergy meds, etc. You all get the idea. This is a matter of everything you do affects your performance. If you keep things consistent, your performance will improve, and it will be noticeable. All the above goes for any firearm though, archery too, and not just a revolver.

And with 3-4" groups at 100 yds, you may not be the best shooter out there (and i'm not even anywhere close either), but you are well above average. And since you can shoot like that now, and want to improve, i will bet you can cut those groups in half or even better.

amen!!!!!!!!!

[Seancass]

I think this is one of my best groups, right around three inches at 100, but only three shots. Why? Cuz this shooter gets shakey. Gun is box stock. Extra hole labeled H was placed with a Hornady bullet to see if i was on paper with that load at 100.

While looking for this picture i found a pic of a 0.7 inch three shot group made with a stock, iron sighted FA 454 at 35 yards. Wish i could get that thing to shoot.

[45 2.1]

44man, you repeatedly say that it's not the gun, partly the shooter, and mostly all on the reloading bench. Please elaborate.

Come on Jim... this is the place for it.

I have several guns that can do it, but I'm letting them down. I HAVE shot sub 4" and two 3" groups at 100 yards with a 44M Ruger SBH Hunter, 2x leupold. I know the gun can do better than that and I aim to prove it.

You are correct, most all of them can if you put the work into it and learn what you need to do to get there.......... NEVER GIVE UP and you will get there.

Threads like this happen a lot and people who naysay usually have a purpose (material gain, easing their conscience because they aren't capable, can't wrap their thoughts around it or don't want anyone to appear better than they are... you take your pick or come up with your own) doing so. If you all treated them like they didn't exist you would learn a lot from the people who can do it and would help you if the antagonistic behavior wasn't there............ you folks get the idea!

[Airman Basic]

If you could winnow the chaff from this thread, it would make a pretty good sticky. Lots of good info.

[cbrick]

44man, you repeatedly say that it's not the gun, partly the shooter, and mostly all on the reloading bench. Please elaborate. What I'd love to actually see somewhere in this thread is some constructive advice on accurate revolver shooting and reloading. Do I Have to sort bullets and brass by weight to the grain? Perfect trim-to and only once-fired brass from the original gun?

I'm not a good shot. I'm not even close. I have several guns that can do it, but I'm letting them down. I HAVE shot sub 4" and two 3" groups at 100 yards with a 44M Ruger SBH Hunter, 2x leupold. I know the gun can do better than that and I aim to prove it.

First . . . Stop telling yourself that your not a good shot, you are defeating yourself before you begin. It is not that your not a good shot, it's nothing more than you haven't yet worked at it enough.

For those having trouble with revolver groups here are the single biggest tips you can get.

Revolvers are the MOST grip sensitive firearm you can shoot. Period! Compared with other action types such as a bolt action rifle they have very slow lock time and far slower barrel time. ANY change you make to the grip will make huge differences in point of impact every single time the grip is different. If you squeeze the grip slightly harder you WILL shoot low. If you ease up on the grip you WILL shoot high. If you move your hand up or down on the grip in the slightest you have changed the point of impact and WILL shoot high or low. If you move your hand right or left on grip you have changed the point of impact right or left. Even a 22 rimfire revolver will move in your hand upon recoil. It must be replaced in your hand exactly as it was on the previous shot. As an exaggeration you can almost squeeze the trigger, break the sears and put the revolver down on the bench BEFORE the bullet exits the muzzle, consider that with different gripping of the gun causing completely different muzzle rise before the bullet exits with each shot. You can see this effect at 25 yards, it is huge at 50 and with no more difference than changing your grip you will be lucky if you even keep it on the target at 100 much less group.

Next is follow through. Once again consider the slow barrel time and muzzle rise. Identical grip allowing consistent follow through on every shot is critical to grouping a revolver.

Next is grip size. The revolvers grip must fit your hand properly. If like me you have large hands the typical single action grips are almost impossible for me to shoot consistently with. All of my single action revolvers wear Pachs. Yep, I agree completely, ugly as sin but ask yourself this . . . Do you want to look good or do you want to shoot good? Pick one and if your answer is shoot good then fit the grips to your hand. Rick

Here's a tip, uniform, consistent neck tension is critical/DO NOT rely on crimp. The crimp is only to prevent the bullet from pulling forward & changing the powder capacity and or tying up the cylinder. Rick

Here is a handloading tip on crimping for revolvers. The crimp does not hold the bullet for a good consistent burn with slow powders, neck tension does and here is proof.

CrimpTests

FA 357 Mag9”
RCBS 180 GCSilhouette @ 192 gr. (WW HT @ 18 BHN)
16.0 gr.H-110
Winchester brass
CCI 550primer
Temp 70⁰Humidity 38%

All chrono tests 10 shots

1>	My normal profile crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized
	E.S. 30
	A.V. 1518
	S.D. 9
2>	Roll crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized
	E.S. 30
	A.V. 1520
	S.D. 9
3>	No crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, very slight bell
	E.S. 30
	A.V. 1528
	S.D. 9
4>	Light profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only
	E.S. 26
	A.V. 1532
	S.D. 8
5>	My normal profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only
	E.S. 26
	A.V. 1536
	S.D. 8

In all of the above 50 rounds fired the neck tension was consistent. The crimp serves to keep the bullet from moving forward under recoil and neck tension is also a big part as no crimp at all proves. No, I do not recommend not crimping, this was an experiment, not match ammo.

Rick

[44man]

First . . . Stop telling yourself that your not a good shot, you are defeating yourself before you begin. It is not that your not a good shot, it's nothing more than you haven't yet worked at it enough.





Here is a handloading tip on crimping for revolvers. The crimp does not hold the bullet for a good consistent burn with slow powders, neck tension does and here is proof.

CrimpTests

FA 357 Mag9”
RCBS 180 GCSilhouette @ 192 gr. (WW HT @ 18 BHN)
16.0 gr.H-110
Winchester brass
CCI 550primer
Temp 70⁰Humidity 38%

All chrono tests 10 shots

1>	My normal profile crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized
	E.S. 30
	A.V. 1518
	S.D. 9
2>	Roll crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized
	E.S. 30
	A.V. 1520
	S.D. 9
3>	No crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, very slight bell
	E.S. 30
	A.V. 1528
	S.D. 9
4>	Light profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only
	E.S. 26
	A.V. 1532
	S.D. 8
5>	My normal profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only
	E.S. 26
	A.V. 1536
	S.D. 8

In all of the above 50 rounds fired the neck tension was consistent. The crimp serves to keep the bullet from moving forward under recoil and neck tension is also a big part as no crimp at all proves. No, I do not recommend not crimping, this was an experiment, not match ammo.

Rick

Exactly correct. Crimp ONLY aids tension to hold a boolit under recoil. I should have an old post here on how to load for the revolver. I might be able to import some here but it might not be complete.
A Ruger will shoot but the BFR's all have faster twist rates. My 45-70 has 1 in 14". The .475 is 1 in 15: and the .500 JRH is 1 in 15" if I remember.
Loading for a revolver is different because there is no resistance to boolit movement. You need case tension. I found the problem in the late 70's shooting IHMSA with my SBH. I was not doing good at all. Then I noticed some bullets went in easier then others so I made a system on my press handle to sort by seating pressure. I sorted piles of loads and if I shot the looser ones I had good groups, most at 1/2" at 50 meters, so did the tight ones but the poi was so great if I mixed the loads I would have a 10" pattern.
I was using RCBS dies. I worked with a custom BR die maker to make me dies to fit my press. They use a collar to size. Not easy with a .44 of course but it worked, just TOOOO much work. I then found the Hornady New Dimension dies do almost as good. The expander is perfect.
Now it takes a tough boolit to resist being sized by the brass. Crimp does not change anything enough and crimp tests from no crimp to full profile showed no differences so I only use enough to hold a boolit under recoil.
My loads show the boolit base and ripples in the brass from grease grooves. The boolit is hard enough to not be sized. Most are water dropped WW metal with even harder for extreme accuracy.
Size in the .44 has not mattered much. My groove is .430" and throats are .4324", the gun will shoot .430" with accuracy, up to .432". It does no good at all to go over throat size.
Soft lead can slump into another boolit, soft can skid rifling and open gas channels that lead the bore. I do NOT believe in expansion to obturate. Gas checks are not needed, they are a skid stop with softer lead but too soft will overcome the check. The land and groove marks on the boolit base must stay at bore measurements. A little skid at the front of the boolit is OK as long as it stops at the base.
Lube tests will show a vast difference in accuracy and Felix lube is the very best. TL and Alox sucks big time.
Primers! It is said every day that a magnum primer with H110 and 296 in the .44 is NEEDED but that is false. I use nothing but a Fed 150 or CCI 300. Federal has NEVER loaded a mag primer in .44 factory loads. Mag primers have pressure enough to move a boolit from the brass before good ignition and will triple groups.
Going to larger cases like the .475 and you then need the magnum LP primer for accuracy. Even my 45-70 uses a Fed 155. No rifle primer. Brass size seems to determine the primer.
I have found the Keith needs to be VERY hard so the shoulder is not wiped off at the cone to allow cylinder pull. You need cylinder play. The WLN, WFN, and RNFP like the Lee boolits will engage the forcing cone with the boolit nose and pull the cylinder in line with the bore. Super tight cylinders must be perfect at the start and that is rare. Even line boring does not work. I won't get into the process.
Out of box revolvers with nothing but a nice trigger job will shoot. I use Wolf over power variable hammer springs at 26# in my SA revolvers. The primer needs struck with a certain force, never ever reduce the hammer spring for trigger pull.
It has been years of work and testing but I have shot hundreds of 1" groups at 100 yards and have done 1/2" many times. Not a single custom revolver, they shoot no better.

[Seancass]

I should have an old post here on how to load for the revolver. I might be able to import some here but it might not be complete.

Jim, here's what you need to do. Open a Word file on your computer(or notepad if you don't have Window's Office). Save As "Reloading" to your desktop. Make a list of categories that you think are important for reloading, such as bullets, cases, twist, grip, tension, powder, primers, etc. Every night for a week, before you hop on this forum and wear out your typing fingers, write down everything you think about each subject. After a week, copy the whole thing and post it on this forum as a new thread. I'd be very interested in reading it.

Edited to add:

First . . . Stop telling yourself that your not a good shot, you are defeating yourself before you begin. It is not that your not a good shot, it's nothing more than you haven't yet worked at it enough.
Rick

I didn't mean to say "Wo is me, i suck!" I meant to say "Hi guys, I don't post here much, I'm not as experienced as you, and I'm here to learn." I ask questions because I'm ignorant, not because I think you're wrong. Also, I've learned that asking smart people smart questions can make some really smart things happen. I appreciate the informative response.

Edited again:

I'll let 44man elaborate on his reloading techniques, but here is my take on things. Consistency!

Thanks for the great reply!

[Seancass]

Here's the gun mentioned above in a quite blurry picture. Sorry about that. This shows how I was shooting that day. It's three separate three-shot groups. There's only 8 holes, I flinched hard, like muscle spasm hard. I don't have a good excuse for that one. Any who, what you see is 2+1 groups. I couldn't put three bullets together that entire day! Very frustrating and likely 100% shooter error. Between the groups I walked down range and inspected the target. The six shots in the center measure 2.7". I think in actuality, I had a 5" group, a 4" group and a 1-foot group.





A while after this range session, I learned something interesting about my Lee dies. The crimp ring measure .429in, so when I used it to crimp .431 bullets, it was sizing down the nose of the bullet and cramming the crimp groove full of lead. I've since changed crimp die.

This gun hasn't been my main project lately, I need to get it back out and exercise it a little. I've been focused on smaller and larger arms.

[44man]

Have to talk brass and there is where most problems occur. Brand new is the worst for consistent tension. Temper is not even so case tension will change. I had 50 new cases left for my .44 so I loaded and shot at 50 yards to find this.Attachment 130739It was not pretty. Had at least 7 different POI. You can sort brass by where it hits to tighten groups.
It is why I made the tool to measure seating pressure.