Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[cbrick]

Geez Bob, I apologize for working up loads. Happens to be the only picture of my groups that I have. I'll delete it from my computer so you don't get upset. Feel better now?

I did just think of a picture that's on my web site. Here is Todd Spotti and one of his IRON SIGHT groups shot Creedmoor at 200 meters on a practice day at the Inland Silhouette Club in Redlands, CA. That's a full size ram, 12 inches from belly to back. The revolver is a Dan Wesson shooting cast.



Without a ruler I'll call that 3- 3 1/2 inches at 200, what would those same shots need to group at 50 to do that at 200? Hhmmm . . .

[robertbank]

Terrific Rick. If you know the gentleman well perhaps you would ask him to pick up a stock Ruger, S&W or any other mainstream manufacturers revolver and shoot a half inch group at fifty yards.

BTW excellent shooting I am impressed. It just isn`t what we are asking for nor what has been claimed.

I know you are not claiming his gun is box stock just out of the box.

Take care

Bob

[cbrick]

Hhmmm . . . I think I am getting a handle on this. Here's how it works. Evidently.

Naysayers sit at a keyboard and everyone else across the country should fall all over themselves to comply with their demands.

Ok. Got it.

And yes that is a totally stock out of the box Dan Wesson, sights and all.

Rick

[45 2.1]

Too from another poster, the old bromide brought up that somehow some mystical reloading method putting together some mystical concoction of carbon and nitro will produce equally mystical results has been a flavour of some old Swede threads and I hope we are not going to see the thread wonder down that lane far. Thankfully I am on his ignore list so we may be spared.

Too bad you can't see the worth of things most of the time. That method was tried by several people and had real benefits, and here you've disparaged it without trying it............ As far as you being on my ignore list, my my.... you certainly didn't understand what you were told. I'll make it clearer...... I told you I ignore you...... that means I find no worth in what you say. That's my opinion about what you say, not anything else. A lot of others have said the same thing to you.... perhaps they are of a similar vein and tired of how you treated others you didn't like or agree with.

[M-Tecs]

Rick

The http://www.lasc.us/site is one of my favorite sites. I have learned a lot from this site. Your national championship titles speak for themselves. I have only respect for you and your accomplishments.

The next comments are not directed at anyone in particular. Just general thoughts on the subject.

My completive game of choice is NRA Higpower and Long Range in both service rifle and match rifle. The service rifle is shot with a post front sight. Yardages are 200 to a 1,000 yards so I understand the frustration with clueless people that have no concept of what can be accomplished with open sights. I have won State and Regional matches but at the Nationals I generally finished at the bottom to the top 10%. I was never gifted with the almost super human vison that the best of the best have.

I have been a toolmaker for the past 32 years. I live and breathe precision machining. As a sideline I build service and match rifles. The highest a rifle I built placed at Camp Perry is third. I also work on some 1911’s but not to the extent of the rifles.

It was stated above to look to the bullseye shooter for proof of the ½’ at 50 guns. The best I can build will do 1 ½ at 50 for a 10 shot group. Normally it’s 2” to 2 ½” at 50. This in in line with the other premium builders. Les Baer http://www.lesbaer.com/CMP.htmlstates this for their Hardball gun “For demanding CMP matches, this super accurate match gun is guaranteed to shoot 10-shot, 3 inch groups at 50 yards with ball ammo.” My S&W 52 will do the same with factory wadcutter.

Up until a few years ago a buddy and I co-owned a ransom rest. He passed away suddenly. I still own my half but I have no clue as to where it is. The point is we tested a large number of stock Colt, S&W and Ruger revolvers. None did ½” at 50 out of the Ransom. For revolver group size is always a full cylinder as I want to determine if it has is an issue with an individual cylinder. I personally own about 25 S&W and Ruger revolvers. Some without work didn’t shoot very well. The best of the best will consistently do ¾” for a full cylinder at 50. Average is more like 1 ½” at 50. I did recently pickup two Dan Wesson 15-2’s. One shoots noticeably better than the other. I plan on scoping it to see what it will do. My 54 year old eyes aren’t what they use to be and they were never the super human vison the best of the iron sight shooters have.

For scoped handguns that will consistently do ½” or better at 50 I own Remington XP-R’s in .223 & 260 that will, however, my Remington XP-R in 35 Remington will not. In Contenders my 222Rem, 6.5 JDJ, 7-30 Waters & 45/70 will. My 22 Hornet, 357, 44 Mag. and 45 Colt will not. Nor would a 223 and 357 Herret that went down the road. I have a second 22 Hornet and 35 Rem barrel that I have not tested yet.

Back to the elusive stock revolver that will always do ½” at 50 I have never seen one that will. Even after extensive work ones that will consistently do ¾” or better at fifty are rare.

[45 2.1]

M-Tecs, you posted this:
Back to the elusive stock revolver that will always do ½” at 50 I have never seen one that will. Even after extensive work ones that will consistently do ¾” or better at fifty are rare.

I have a question or two then. How do you explain the group photos in posts #361 & #381 from stock revolvers. Those would seem at the extreme minimum limit of what you've said..... handheld at that without the stability of a fixed rest and at 3 to 4 times the distance extrapolated out. Exceptional guns, exceptional shooters, something else or magic as some of the more used explanations I've seen before, but not necessarily what I would say myself (that would be work and effort expended)? The second is just what ammunition did you use in your tests for that level of accuracy reported? Was it tailored custom handloads, factory ammunition or something else?

[Hickok]

Hickok, it's not your fault people get bent out of shape. Don't think a thing of it. Everybody has different skill levels and some work at it a lot longer to get there than others. The level you're shooting at will allow you to enjoy a lot of activities done with a handgun....... except when you get into the handgun games. Those require a special dedication to get really good in. I can guarantee that the level you shoot is much better than a majority of shooters do from what I've seen.

Thanks 45 2.1. My main handgunning goal is to be able to put a boolit through the heart/lungs of deer from the muzzle to 100 yards on the first and only shot with my iron sighted revolver. I prefer 50 yards or less, but will shoot out to 100 yards if I get good presentation from the deer, and if I am confident of making a killing shot.

Truthfully, when I started this post, I never considered or even thought about handguns in competition. I do realize competition can really hone and sharpen a persons skills. I shot competition with bow for years, and it really helps the skill level improve.

[M-Tecs]

How do you explain the group photos in posts #361 & #381 from stock revolvers.

No need to explain. They are very impressive groups shot by a very impressive shooter.

The second is just what ammunition did you use in your tests for that level of accuracy reported? Was it tailored custom handloads, factory ammunition or something else?

For the 45 ACP Federal and Winchester wadcutter factory match and/or GI issue Match Ball made TZZ(IMI), Federal or Winchester. For revolvers I have two 625's and five Ruger 45 Colt/45 ACP's.

In 38/357 are are tested with Federal or Winchester facory wadcutter, GI HiVel 38 ball and general and custom handloads and some factory mag ammo.

35 Rem mix of factory and custom handloads.

45 colt are all general and custom handloads. I have never fired a factory 45 load.

44 Mag general and custom handloads and factory.

260 some factory but mostly handloads.

All other are general handloads with an oddball mix of factory and if the gun show promise it MAY get custom loads if the intended use warrants the effort.

[dvnv]

Rick



Back to the elusive stock revolver that will always do ½” at 50 I have never seen one that will. Even after extensive work ones that will consistently do ¾” or better at fifty are rare.

Could be Ransom Rests aren't perfect machines. I have not had great success with mine.

It might be interesting to scope one of those revolvers, benched it with the same load, and compared results to the ransom rest.

[35remington]

How often does one take a picture of an average or below average group? Whether on paper or steel?

Helps address some of the questions about disparities in observed results.

[M-Tecs]

Could be Ransom Rests aren't perfect machines. I have not had great success with mine.

It might be interesting to scope one of those revolvers, benched it with the same load, and compared results to the ransom rest.

Some have been and you are correct Ransom Rests aren't perfect machines. My 686's, 625's and 29/629 have all be tested with a 12x handgun scope.

The Ramsom rest inserts do need to settle in and they do sometimes move. We used cheap inch travel indicator to ensure repeatability.

[robertbank]

M-Tecs I would be curious to know f you found your Rugers to have tight cylinders. Both of my guns were very tight and would not shoot cast at all. At 25 yards I at times would have been better off just tossing the gun at the target - a bit of an exaggeration. I did have the forcing cones on both guns cut to 11 degrees. Both leaded in the first sixteenth pf an inch of the rifling unitl I got the forcing cone cleaned up and cut. No more lead build up around the forcing cone from bullets shaving their way into the barrel.

Take care

Bob

[robertbank]

45 2.1
You posted earlier I was on your ignore list. Why can`t you keep a promise. I am not about to believe there is a magical method of reloading that will turn my gun into a competition tuned bullseye gun simply by using some magical load developed for a particular gun. I have enough trouble tailoring my loads to my guns and requirements. I doubt anything 44man does would have any impact on what I use my guns for. That should not be to hard to understand I would not think. Unless of course it involves a 45Colt load of 8 gr of Unique under a 260 gr cast Mountain mold bullet I use for keeping critters honest up here. That or a 38 spl load that will shoot my 160 gr RN Cast bullets exactly at 688 fps.

Take Care

Bob

[M-Tecs]

Darn is was hoping nobody would asked that. Other than one old 44 BH all have been undersize. I have to admit I have been to lazy to check actual size. If a .358 or .4525 gage pin doesn't fit it get reamed. They all needed it.

[cbrick]

Thanks M-tecs, appreciate the compliments.

Ransom rests huh? I never got results worth noting from one. Tried for some time & gave up on it. My personal view is that they are probably fine for stuff like 20 yard 1911's & such. For the big bore long range stuff I just wasted a lot of ammo. Here is something else for the naysayers grey matter to chew on. I do far better from either a shooting bench or in Creedmoor than I get with the same gun, same load mounted in a Ransom Rest.

As for 50 meter groups I can't remember ever shooting nothing but groups at 50, I don't know what the point would be. I did the bulk of load development scoped from the bench regardless of which gun on the 150 meter turkey & sometimes the 200 meter ram. I needed loads that would do well on 1/2 size shoot-off targets at 200. I have never seen loads that looked good at 200 but failed at 50. If the load is working scoped from the bench at 200 what possible good would it do me to sit and shoot 50 meter groups? After load development the scope came off and it was entirely up to me to shoot iron sight Creedmoor. After extensive testing a load/gun combo from the bench if it didn't work in the match the problem wasn't the gun/load, the problem was me. For practice days there would be no benefit to sit and shoot 50 meter groups, I practiced at 50-100-150-200 meters on the same targets that I shot in the match. For practice and also checking sight settings I would shoot one at 50, change the sights, shoots one at 100, sight change, shoot one at 150, sight change & shoot 200. Then start over at 200 & work the sights back down to 50. All day. For years.

Multiple groups on the same target at 50? Yeah right, feel free to waste your ammo if you choose.

Rick

[robertbank]

Darn is was hoping nobody would asked that. Other than one old 44 BH all have been undersize. I have to admit I have been to lazy to check actual size. If a .358 or .4525 gage pin doesn't fit it get reamed. They all needed it.

That has been my experience. I wish Ruger would change out their cutters more frequently but maybe there are issues we don`t appreciate. Might be the figure the consumer will have them reamed to the size that best suits their needs. I would assume you did some work on the forcing cones as well on some of them.

Take Care

Bob

[M-Tecs]

Rick

None of my XP's and most of my Contenders were tested at 50. Initial load development was at 100 and if the gun was to be sight at 200 the load development was finished at 200. I just divided my 100 groups by two for the 50 claim. The 22 Hornet, 35 Rem and 45/70 are sighted for 100. The 222, 223 and 6.5 JDJ see use out to 300 yards on prairie dogs.

[35remington]

Well I'm glad someone else's considered results are a discussion point for a change. It took nerve for M Tecs to post that.....it really did.

It does not at all invalidate my very simple point, which is, to recap, that exceptional results claimed here are not to be considered the norm for production revolvers. Ross Seyfried called the true MOA revolver the "holy grail" of accuracy goals, and when he attempted it, a custom, highly tweaked revolver was what he used. If average production revolvers were capable of it, it wouldn't be much of a grail. A half inch revolver as the "typical" 50 yard accuracy situation from production guns would have rendered his search for the MOA revolver to be pointless as a half incher at fifty is pretty much just what Seyfried was searching for.

Pick apart M Tec's findings as you will. Just know that this got a lot more entertaining for me.

[44man]

44, my problem is I do understand the revolver. Because I do, your claims come off as far from believable.

No, you do not, not even close. Had the same problem with another that did not believe anything. I grabbed 5 rounds for my Vaquero .45 colt and shot this Creedmore at 50.Attachment 130698Sorry for the stringing but my belly is in the way.
How about working loads from a box stock revolver at 50. Attachment 130699
You don't like long range results but you can't shoot long range unless you get groups like this at 50.
Want to see what an out of box revolver does with a scope at 50? Attachment 130700 5 shotgun shells on their sides to shoot into the base, only found 3 in the weeds but hit all 5 with 5 shots. You are looking at 3/4" targets, holes still centered.
I do not need 5 targets shot to determine the load, I need five shots only.
Rick will tell you the same. He does not need hundreds of shots.
The only revolvers I have parted with were because of grip sensitivity.
You learn and I can even tell you what primer you used in your .44. I can tell you the alloy used. Might tell you your lube too.
Go to an IHMSA shoot and watch all shots hit dead center on the steel.
NO, you do NOT know the revolver! My work is for all to get an appreciation for a great gun, not to brag.

[35remington]

44.... corroborating opinions say I just might know the production revolver after all. Read the thread and get up to speed. You'll just have to live with that one.