Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[44man]

Attachment 130631This is hard to see but is all the different boolits I shoot from an out of box BFR. One group is actually 3/16" and the low right was to sight for deer. The 5 shot group in the white is hard to see but is well under 1/2". The left is 10 shots. Yes, I make all these boolits shoot.
My puter failed so I saved pictures to a stick and most turned to thumbnails.

[45 2.1]

44, my problem is I do understand the revolver. Because I do, your claims come off as far from believable.

Nobody here has seen anything you did. You've said you've shot 1/2" at 50 yards with custom. No proof from you by your own standard of five - 5 shot groups. You've said you've had extensive experience in other threads. Those of us with that same extensive experience don't see that from what you've said. If you're going to call someone out, put up or shut up......................

[35remington]

Separate groups on different targets.......again. Good shooting but hardly proves an average.

Nothing like be able to say "I'll keep the good ones and ignore the others that aren't so hot."

I hope you now realize that these don't help to establish proof of average accuracy.

[35remington]

45, what exactly do you want to see? Want to see that I do multiple groups on the same target regularly as a part of my load testing? Since I didn't make outrageous claims that normally require extraordinary proof I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest I resolve for someone else by so doing.

I didn't make the claims.....they did. I already said I could not do it with a revolver.

[cbrick]

Jim, since you stopped competing there have been changes to the rule book. Everything you said about sights "was" true but starting in the mid 90's the rule book allows aftermarket sights. The production rules apply in that the gun cannot be altered to mount the sights but if they screw on they are allowed, no glass, open sights only. BoMar sights ruled supreme until the maker of them died and his family shut the business down, sad day and very tough to replace. All of my match guns wore Bo-Mars. 19 clicks per turn and extremely repeatable.

As for 2 1/2 inch 50 meter groups winning matches anyone that has ever even watched a match knows how absurd that is. The target size listed on the IHMSA web site is accurate however there is a catch. Those dimensions are from the bottom of the foot to the top of the head. The actual target is the body of the animal and is much smaller. As an example, the full size ram at 200 meters from the edge of the belly to the edge of the back is 12 inches. That's the target area and that's for full size targets. Now consider half size targets used in shoot-offs at 200 meters, the biggest one is the ram and it's 6 inches from belly to back. The half size turkey from belly to back is 4 1/2 inches high. The body area of the 1/2 size chicken also used in shoot-offs is the size of a pack of cigarettes. Now if you can hold your 2 1/2 inch 50 meter group out to 200 meters at "best" you have 10 inch groups. Anyone starting to see a problem?

Rick

[tazman]

Well, this thread has certainly gone over the cliff into free fall. We have a lot of Trollish behavior going on with people basically calling others liars when they saw it happen... or did it themselves. Nobody here is anyone else's boss..... so if they want to see it done, they should learn to do it or travel someplace on their own dime to do so. As far as ability and reality, those are individual things controlled by the individual and vary a lot over the spectrum of people on the earth. Too bad some of the more argumentative people on this thread can't or won't see that................

That is the catch isn't it. He is not interested in seeing it done. He will never go anywhere that might prove his claims wrong. He only wishes to belittle people who have done it since he can't.

He has already accused someone who posted targets of "cherry picking"

[35remington]

Since I live on the fifty yard range, you got it.

I'm sure it will be too much to ask for the same in return.

[35remington]

Multiple on the same targets will eliminate cherry picking claims yet we haven't seen it.

I want to see these wondrous claims in a format that shows they are typical averages. Multiple groups on the same target is the only way I can see doing it over the Internet.

I AM incredibly interested in seeing it done...requests to travel, requests for single target multiple groups are how to ask for it.

[45 2.1]

Can I shoot half an inch at fifty for averages? Sure....but not with a stock revolver, nor has anyone I've witnessed or heard of.

I didn't make the claims.....they did. I already said I could not do it with a revolver.

The top post is #243 in this thread.... unedited at this moment. Since this about revolvers, one would have to assume you shot something custom or scoped in a revolver for you to make a statement like that.... unless you wanted to mislead. You can clear that up at any time.

[35remington]

Pardon while I go to work now. Targets wlth multiple groups later. Hundred of them. Funny no one here ever does it.

[youngmman]

Ha, ha! Yes, well said.



You're getting better results than most, thinks I. Unless I'm shooting a built up match pistol, I'm very happy with 2" at 25 yards and to be honest, only a few of my handguns will do that consistently.

I think your doing just fine. The best I have ever done is 1"-1.25" @25 yards from sitting at a bench with a good rest. This was with cast bullets with a mo. 629 6" during some pretty extensive load development sessions. I might add that the gun had been tuned with Chamber Throats, Forcing Cone checked and polished and the barrel base squared.

If anyone dings you for your results they are probably nothing more than an arm chair shooter who needs to get out more.

[35remington]

When apeaking of shootoffs the half inch fifty should do if groups are shown here.

[35remington]

45, ever hear of a Contender? That's what I mentioned doing it with, as in approaching a half inch at fifty. You may check my posts to confirm that. 'Fraid that's the only handgun that I can manage even close to half inch at fifty with. Don't have any shorty bolt guns.

Nor do I have great experience with custom revolvers save for some PPC guns.

[cbrick]

Multiple on the same targets will eliminate cherry picking claims yet we haven't seen it.

I have seen it as have countless thousands of others. I have accomplished it as have countless others.

I want to see these wondrous claims in a format that shows they are typical averages. Multiple groups on the same target is the only way I can see doing it over the Internet.

hehe . . . I want. I want. I want and I'm gonna hold my breath until I get it.

I can't imagine why anyone would care what you want, I sure don't. If you want to see it you have been told how. Be sure to stay for the shoot-offs.

I AM incredibly interested in seeing it done...requests to travel, requests for single target multiple groups are how to ask for it.

Then go see it done. I may go spectate at the Internationals this year myself since it's at the club I used to run. See ya at the range, I can't wait to watch you tell them they can't do what you just watched them do or even better yet call them liars for doing it. Maybe they aren't liars, maybe they just all cheat. Great fun, see ya at the range.

Rick

[35remington]

And in all those countless times, not a single target with multiple groups on it. Not one.

Trust me...I ain't holding my breath for someone to put up or I'd be dead by now.

[cbrick]

When apeaking of shootoffs the half inch fifty should do if groups are shown here.

And in all those countless times, not a single target with multiple groups on it. Not one.

Ok, I get it now. Finally we are on the same page.

None of those scores and none of those shoot-off results count because they haven't shown YOU here with multiple groups on the same target. Yep, got it. I will be sure to tell the International sanctioning body and the NRA competitions division they have it all wrong. None of the 38 year history of the sport means diddly because nobody proved it to you in a manor that is acceptable to you. I am sure they will be fascinated to learn how wrong they have it.

Rick

[45 2.1]

45, ever hear of a Contender? That's what I mentioned doing it with, as in approaching a half inch at fifty. You may check my posts to confirm that. 'Fraid that's the only handgun that I can manage even close to half inch at fifty with. Don't have any shorty bolt guns.

Thought so and it was misleading of you since the talk was about revolvers........... Yep, I have Contenders too. Several of the barrels will do the 1/2" or under at 50 yards depending on what they get shot with...... some even with lead with the irons that came on them.

Oh, you don't need to bother with groups since you've stated your capabilities..............it wouldn't prove anything as several of us know what can be done already.

[35remington]

Wasn't misleading because I stated up front it was a Contender NOT.a revolver.

Hope you don't mind if I show pictures anyway.

[robertbank]

Ok, I get it now. Finally we are on the same page.

None of those scores and none of those shoot-off results count because they haven't shown YOU here with multiple groups on the same target. Yep, got it. I will be sure to tell the International sanctioning body and the NRA competitions division they have it all wrong. None of the 38 year history of the sport means diddly because nobody proved it to you in a manor that is acceptable to you. I am sure they will be fascinated to learn how wrong they have it.

Rick

Rick from a brief resume you posted I want you to know I have a great deal of respect for those who volunteer in the Administration and Organization capacities of our shooting sports no matter the discipline and you certainly have put in your time. I don't recall anywhere on this thread a claim by you to have shot 1/2" groups out of a stock iron sighted revolver at 50 yards. You have often quoted the results of long range shooting which is all a matter of record. Frankly I admire those that have the physical and mental ability to perform as they do. The same can be said for those who participate in other shooting disciplines at the highest level.

What I don't understand is why you continue to bring up long distance ram shooting, shoot offs etc when that is not what is at the core of the discussion. Hitting targets at 200 metres with one shot is not shooting groups of five at 50 yards using iron sights.

I recognize age and time can play on ones mind. I am what I am at 70. God only knows what I will be or have left if my fate allows me to see the sun at 77 and I accept that and mean no hurt by challenging statements put into print without haste, but never the less are recognizable for what they are. I hope we are clear on that.

To claim, as one person has regularly throughput this thread that production revolvers (the Ruger Blackhawk seems to be the revolver of choice) out of the box using iron sights can and will shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yards is just unbelievable. To say it is regular or could be done repeatably insults the intelligence. I suspect you are aware of this. I say that because you have been around some of the best long range shooters the US has generated and you know what they can do and what they used to do it. Put a scope on the gun, clean up the cylinders, if you are going to use lead bullets cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees, check for barrel constriction, a not to rare occurrence with Rugers and you have an excellent chance of accomplishing the feat off a rest. Note I said with a scope and chance. Five shots still allows for Murphy to arrive on the scene.

But all of that is not accomplishing the feat with a new, out of the box gun with iron sights. That is what I fail to believe. I was born on a day it just wasn't yesterday and neither were you. No insult intended. You know what is possible and surely at your age you recognize what is not. The whole claim gets deeper when we hear the claimant state that he has a load, the ultimate formula that when applied to any gun of like caliber will instantly become a shooter. I do wish it was that easy and even more so...true.

Take Care

Bob

[45 2.1]

Here is post #243 where you stated that you did that...in its entirety:

Can I shoot half an inch at fifty for averages? Sure....but not with a stock revolver, nor has anyone I've witnessed or heard of.

Feel free to prove your gun capable.

Absolutely unarguable point....nearly ALL stock revolvers are not capable of doing so.

Realism is often unkind. It is also better to gauge your revolver by.

Wasn't misleading because I stated up front it was a Contender NOT.a revolver.

Without editing post #243, which would show, just where did you state it was a Contender? From post #243, you left it up in the air by stating you have shot 1/2" 50 yard groups, but not with an iron sighted revolver with absolutely no reference to a Contender as you just stated.