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Thread: BHN to much hardness?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    BHN to much hardness?

    Stepping up the BHN with range lead that has about 4% antimony using about 3 oz of 30% antimony 70% lead ingot to 16 oz lead, Added a little tin. Bullets fill mold perfect with consistent weight 178.6 to 178.8 gr and all with 31.4 BHN with the Lee hardness tester after heat treated in oven and quenched. The numbers give me 2250 to 2400 fps, just right for my hunting most 100 yards or less for deer. Boolits .312 or .313 of not sized, good match with groove .313. Also will back down about 2500 from the max pressure, bullets gas checked. 7.62x54 M44.
    Maybe BHN to hard will not expand?, make a few hollow points? This is uncharted FPS for my cast boolits, would like to hear from someone who has been there
    Last edited by DanaDrew; 12-17-2014 at 02:52 PM.

  2. #2
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    If you get lead bullets too hard (high BHN) they become more brittle and may shatter on impact rather than expanding.

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    If you want alloy which is ductile enough to expand to double-diameter, and retain 80+% of original weight, but be strong enough to stand full jacketed velocity in the .30-'06 and .375 H&H use 1 pound of wheelweights to 5 pounds of plumber's lead, DO NOT add any tin!

    If bullets require sizing, do this before heat treating, but do not lube or crimp on gaschecks because the hoop stress caused by crimping on the GC will pop off the bases in the oven. Heat treat in the oven at 460-470 degs F for six hours, quench immediately in room temperature water within 5 seconds of removing from the oven, then gather up the wet bullets, put in a plastic bag and cold soak in your freezer for 14 days.

    Calibrate your oven by taking a pure linotype bullet and placing it in the oven for a long soak, starting initially with the dial set at 450 degs F. You want to find the highest dial setting at which you can leave a linotype bullet in the oven for several hours, without it melting, sweating or slumping like melted ice cream. Mark this setting with a Sharpie. Then repeat the test increasing the temperature by a SMALL increment until you can observe the linotype bullet trough the oven window beginning to sweat, and after a long exposure of at least an hour, slightly lose shape like a melting ice cream cone. Mark this dial setting also with a Sharpie.

    Your oven HT setting is BETWEEN these two marks!

    This long HT, rapid quench and cyro is necessary to ensure that ALL of the Sb is held in a true solid solution and to optimize the precipitation hardening. Crimp on gaschecks and lube after after heat treatment.

    With a flatnosed bullet having a meplat from 0.5 to 0.6 of bullet diameter, at velocities over 2000 no hollowpointing is necessary. #375449 in the .375 H&H gives the same expansion and penetration as 270-grain softpoint factory loads with 65 grains of IMR4350. My buddy in SA has used this receipe to kill waterbuck, kudu and similar game.

    If you have back copies of American Rifleman, look up the article "Cast Bullets In Africa" by George Martin, back in the early to mid 1980s. Full info on the loads, heat treatment and pictures of game taken.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-17-2014 at 02:43 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanaDrew View Post
    Bullets fill mold perfect with consistent weight 178.6 to 178.8 gr and all with .040 BHN with the Lee hardness tester after heat treated.
    A dimple diameter of .040" indicates the heat treatment has bought the hardness down to 33 BHN. That seems excessive by any standard I've ever heard about.
    But then, I use 20-1 lead/tin alloy.

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idz View Post
    If you get lead bullets too hard (high BHN) they become more brittle and may shatter on impact rather than expanding.
    Yes thanks, thats what I was thinking, if not that maybe to much penetration and just a pass through

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    A dimple diameter of .040" indicates the heat treatment has bought the hardness down to 33 BHN. That seems excessive by any standard I've ever heard about.
    But then, I use 20-1 lead/tin alloy.

    CM
    ya, your right, I was surprised myself, maybe no heat treat, let them set for a few days. Thanks

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    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks for the info, winters are long here, should get time to work with that. Thanks again

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    Seems like a lot of extra work, if you have range scrap with 4% antimony you could add 1% tin and water drop the boolits for 24 to 26 BHN and they shouldn't shatter.
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

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    Quote Originally Posted by 454PB View Post
    Seems like a lot of extra work, if you have range scrap with 4% antimony you could add 1% tin and water drop the boolits for 24 to 26 BHN and they shouldn't shatter.
    ok, that sounds good, usually the simpler the better, lol. Ill give that a try. If there oven treated rather than droped that should give 1 or 2 more BHN and be more consistent? I have the tin, soooo, but what temp in the pot? What about say 3% tin?

  10. #10
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    Welcome to CastBoolits DanaDrew,

    If you ad tin (Sn) keep the Sn below the antimony (Sb) percentage but with your alloy 2% Sn is plenty. If you decide to try HP's don't add the Sb or heat treat.

    If you should try your hand at heat treating try this article.

    http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

    Rick
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master KYCaster's Avatar
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    If your range scrap has 4% Sb, you don't need to add any more than that. Add enough Sn to get 2% total and you should be able to 2200 fps with no issues.

    Heat treating may let you increase the velocity, but I doubt it will change the terminal performance. With proper boolit selection you're going to get complete penetration, no matter what the alloy, and the softer alloy may allow some expansion.

    Jerry
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrick View Post
    If you ad tin (Sn) keep the Sn below the antimony (Sb) percentage
    I'm posting this graph, without comment, for you to consider, Rick.
    It details how four alloys changed hardness over time, and were tested for a period of fourteen weeks.

    The testing was done by a guy who is absolutely anal about detail, and who tries to use every means available to eliminate things that would invalidate a test.

    The percentages for the alloys are lead/antimony/tin, in that order.

    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

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    I'd do some more reading around the site...
    you got a long way to go.
    matching the LEE number to what you're trying to do is about the wrongest way to do it there is.
    I'd start with goodsteel's sticky in the hunting section and move onto dan walkers sticky in the same area.
    I have a thread that's a couple of weeks old in the cast boolits section titled 'high velocity'.
    there are some good tip's in there.

    if that's not enough reading go to my sticky 'some tips that may help' and follow the links starting on about page 5, that should point you in the right direction to getting there on paper first then in the field.

  14. #14
    Boolit Mold
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    Hi Rick, thanks for the link, very good info there. Waiting for both brain cells to kick in but looks like the tin will help fill the mold with really no long lasting effect on the BHN. My Sb was to high and that would enplane the huge jump in BNH especially after heat treat. So my 4% Sb range scrap is enough? The 4% is a guess by the way. I have plenty of Sb if I need to add a touch. I know there are easier ways but when I get this working I want something that will last and ingot a few pounds. Heat treat or not to heat treat, that is the question, lol.

  15. #15
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    How much Sb is in your range scrap will depend largely on the type of shooting mostly done at that range. Different factory handgun bullets vary in composition as do many rifle bullets, here is a cut & paste from this article:

    http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm#commonalloys

    Salvaged range lead can be quite the mix unless you’re familiar with the range and know that a specific type of shooting is mostly done..22 lead is mostly lead, virtually no antimony, and usually about 1-2% tin. Jacketed bullet alloy composition ranges anywhere from pure lead to 5% Sb. As a very general statement, many handgun jacketed bullets have pure lead cores (almost all Noslers, almost all FMJs, and most std. velocity jacketed handgun bullets). Some have hardened cores (e.g. the Sierra 300 grain .44 Mag bullets is 5% Sb). If the range has centerfire rifle bullets, then they are commonly 3% or 5% Sb. So the bottom line is that jacketed bullets can contribute almost any hardness to bullet metal. I have read reports of shotgun slugs being from near pure lead to approximately 2-3% antimony.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    I'm posting this graph, without comment, for you to consider, Rick.
    It details how four alloys changed hardness over time, and were tested for a period of fourteen weeks.
    Charlie, this chart follows my experience very closely right down to most of the gain in three days with at least a 2% Sb, 2% Sn alloy. Thanks for posting it.

    The metallurgy of a Pb/Sb/Sn alloy is that higher percentages of Sn (over 5%) will limit somewhat the amount of heat treating age hardening that can be achieved. Higher Sn percentages will also increase the age softening time curve. I've noticed little of that though with 2% Sn alloy, I HT CWW +2% Sn to 30 BHN and they sat under my bench for a full 10 years and they were still 26 BHN.

    Rick
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    I'd do some more reading around the site...
    you got a long way to go.
    matching the LEE number to what you're trying to do is about the wrongest way to do it there is.
    I'd start with goodsteel's sticky in the hunting section and move onto dan walkers sticky in the same area.
    I have a thread that's a couple of weeks old in the cast boolits section titled 'high velocity'.
    there are some good tip's in there.

    if that's not enough reading go to my sticky 'some tips that may help' and follow the links starting on about page 5, that should point you in the right direction to getting there on paper first then in the field.

    Thanks for the comment. Im not really trying to match the Lee number, I have a formula for copper psi (CUP) to cast boolets that gets pretty close and starting way on the low (safe) side even then. After another cup of coffee (no pun intended) Ill give them a read.

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrick View Post
    How much Sb is in your range scrap will depend largely on the type of shooting mostly done at that range. Different factory handgun bullets vary in composition as do many rifle bullets, here is a cut & paste from this article:

    http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm#commonalloys

    Salvaged range lead can be quite the mix unless you’re familiar with the range and know that a specific type of shooting is mostly done..22 lead is mostly lead, virtually no antimony, and usually about 1-2% tin. Jacketed bullet alloy composition ranges anywhere from pure lead to 5% Sb. As a very general statement, many handgun jacketed bullets have pure lead cores (almost all Noslers, almost all FMJs, and most std. velocity jacketed handgun bullets). Some have hardened cores (e.g. the Sierra 300 grain .44 Mag bullets is 5% Sb). If the range has centerfire rifle bullets, then they are commonly 3% or 5% Sb. So the bottom line is that jacketed bullets can contribute almost any hardness to bullet metal. I have read reports of shotgun slugs being from near pure lead to approximately 2-3% antimony.
    Thanks for the info, rifle range so thats why Im guessing 4%. Some dead lead Im sure. Fluxed and cleaned some last night, will check it. Thanks again

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_charlie View Post
    I'm posting this graph, without comment, for you to consider, Rick.
    It details how four alloys changed hardness over time, and were tested for a period of fourteen weeks.

    The testing was done by a guy who is absolutely anal about detail, and who tries to use every means available to eliminate things that would invalidate a test.

    The percentages for the alloys are lead/antimony/tin, in that order.

    If Im reading the chart right, wow what a difference 1% Sb makes. My 4% Sb range scrap is starting to look pretty good. Saved and printed the chart, should be a good guide along the way

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanaDrew View Post
    If Im reading the chart right, wow what a difference 1% Sb makes. My 4% Sb range scrap is starting to look pretty good. Saved and printed the chart, should be a good guide along the way
    The thing shown by the graph which impressed me the most was that when antimony and tin are equal in percentage, the alloy holds a very stable hardness over time.
    When the amount of antimony is greater than the tin, the hardness changes continuously, and perhaps randomly.

    If you have stored ammunition loaded with bullets that have a lesser quantity of tin, the hardness when they are shot will have little resemblance to what it was when loaded - or during any portion of the storage period.

    Yet, it is common to see advice where an alloy with 3 or 4 percent antimony is considered good when it only has '2% tin'.

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check