Inconsistent burn using H4227 in 38/40

[44man]

Squib--- No, not ever. just more velocity with heat. Only a boolit pushed out with the primer before ignition can squib. Case tension or a too strong primer.

[foxtrapper]

4227= magnum primers

[Mugs]

Like 44man said it was always the powder of choice for the 357Max. I used IMR instead H. It was also my favorite for 357. Lots of 40X 40 in my FA. I also used it at 17 grs. in the 7BR with a Rem. 7 1/2 with no burn problems.

Mugs

[andym79]

The load was right; whether the powder was bad or contaminated or could not say for sure.


So there are known burn issues with H4227 then?

I will do the ring around, but 3 months ago I couldn't get unique for love or money!

Not that I will try it, but I wonder if VV N110 would behave the same as H4227, I think it may burn a bit cleaner (I have 1 1/2 lbs).

[cbrick]

Andy, how old is the brass? If it's starting to age harden it's loosing grip and will shoot like a reduced load. Additional crimp won't help much for this, crimp is mostly to hold the bullet under recoil not for getting a good burn. Try annealing or new brass to see if the problem goes away. Since the load was working and now not so much and everything else being the same I would start by taking a good look at the brass.

Rick

[andym79]

Andy, how old is the brass? If it's starting to age harden it's loosing grip and will shoot like a reduced load. Additional crimp won't help much for this, crimp is mostly to hold the bullet under recoil not for getting a good burn. Try annealing or new brass to see if the problem goes away. Since the load was working and now not so much and everything else being the same I would start by taking a good look at the brass.

Rick

Perhaps I should try and anneal it, its been reloaded about a dozen times. Annealing is something I usually leave too long, though I normally get told that by some brass splitting at the neck.

Just as an extra, I checked the whole batch of brass for length and its all right and consistent.

[singleshot]

I'm baffled by all the reported problems with 4227. It's my most accurate powder with 44 mag 310 grain boolits and does fine with 240 grain loads for me in any weather condition. I've burned through about 10# in that capacity thus far.

[andym79]

I'm baffled by all the reported problems with 4227. It's my most accurate powder with 44 mag 310 grain boolits and does fine with 240 grain loads for me in any weather condition. I've burned through about 10# in that capacity thus far.

Why all this talk of 44 mag, we are talking about cartridges like 38-40, 44-40 and 40 S&W. H4227, H110 N110 are probably the best powders for the 44 MAG.

I use a lot of 4227 in the 30-30 and 38-55 and have never had this problem! It was accurate but has never burnt like I would like it to in the 38-40. I think the potential of bad powder or contaminated powder aside, the best options are
1) To increase the load from 18 up to the max of 24 and see if combustion improves with an increased charge.
2) To try a faster powder AP70 or unique if I can get hold of either!

[303Guy]

How is the hammer spring tension? It used to work and now it doesn't. It could be a weak spring - it is after all an old gun. You might also try Federal primers. They are supposed to be more sensitive and have a lower power (which would reduce boolit pushout before ignition - not sure that would apply though). But do check that hammer spring. It may have nothing to do with it but then it might not be giving the primer enough of a strike for a hot flame. Just to eliminate that as a possible cause.

[andym79]

"The powder was from the same can as in previous matches, the load was the same 18 grains of H4227, triple checked, the primers were the same LP federal, brass Starline full sized, the alloys was the same PB 4:1 Lino."

I am using Federal primers, I prefer CCI (that is what I use for all my SR and LR applications, they just didn't have LP CCI in the gun shops around me, so I have been running with LP Federal for the last year).

I will have a closer look at the hammer spring, but the hammer does seem to fall with a fair bit of force when I dry fire it.

On a similar note, whilst looking for other powders to fill the void:

I have been looking through my Lyman cast bullet manual and quite a lot of good loads seem to ask for Green Dot, Unique and SR4756.

To what extent can AS50 (International), AP70 (Universal) and AP100 be substituted for Green Dot, Unique and SR4756 and vice versa?

I know they are equivalents, but some times that means no more than there burn rates not other characteristics!

What are your experiences of substituting any of these powders?

[rsrocket1]

AP70 (Universal) is Hodgdon's direct competitor to Alliant Unique. So close that it is alleged that an Alliant engineer "gave away" the formula to the competition. I don't know about that, but you should look at your reloading books as well as Alliant's load data for Unique and the same application on Hodgdon's site for Universal. Look at cartridges other than just 38-40. You will see that they are so close that you can rest assured that a cartridge that works with Unique will certainly work with Universal. I would of course work up loads, but most likely you'd end up with the same charge weight in both cases. On the plus side, I've found that the ADI "Clays" powders tend to burn more completely even when "under pressured" and leave a cleaner barrel. The under pressure loads are still smokey and off sounding, but with the Alliant powders (Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot, Bullseye), there are a lot more unburned flakes that spew out in all directions. When I first started to load, I wanted to "be safe" and load with a double margin of safety. 4g Unique under a 230g 45ACP bullet certainly went bang and put nice holes in the target, but after a hundred+ rounds, there was so much unburned flakes in front of the shooting bench, I swept up a pile that could have loaded quite a few more rounds.

The cure of course is to avoid under pressured loads and get the peak pressure up to or over 9,000 psi where the powder likes to burn. Unfortunately for your 38-40, you don't have a lot of margin with the SAAMI spec being only 14,000 psi unlike a lot of modern handguns which can go to 35k or rifles that can go to 50k+.

I've tried Clays (AS30N) in equivalent weight charges which called for Trail Boss and the performance was very close. In the US, Hodgdon sells Titewad and that powder is also nearly an exact duplicate of Clays by weight (not volume). It is also a bit less expensive than Clays. Both Clays and Titewad are excellent powders for building up full pressure without driving the bullet too fast. That makes for an excellent low velocity/low recoil load and a clean burn.

I think you will be pleased with the AS50N and AP70N powders. You'll be able to shoot with a lot less powder than 4227 and get consistent performance. As always, start low and work your way up.

Good luck.

[w30wcf]

Why all this talk of 44 mag, we are talking about cartridges like 38-40, 44-40 and 40 S&W. H4227, H110 N110 are probably the best powders for the 44 MAG.

I use a lot of 4227 in the 30-30 and 38-55 and have never had this problem! It was accurate but has never burnt like I would like it to in the 38-40. I think the potential of bad powder or contaminated powder aside, the best options are
1) To increase the load from 18 up to the max of 24 and see if combustion improves with an increased charge.
2) To try a faster powder AP70 or unique if I can get hold of either!

At 24 grs you are likely to lead the bore since your bullet does not wear a gas check. You might try 20 grs first. The issue with the squib could have been a bad primer.

w30wcf

[andym79]

At 24 grs you are likely to lead the bore since your bullet does not wear a gas check. You might try 20 grs first. The issue with the squib could have been a bad primer.

w30wcf

I believe you are right, I think 20-21 is the upper limit with a GC.
I ran the load though quickload as a matter of interest at 17.5 grains of the powder it estimate that 73% is burnt, that is consistent with my continuous observation of unburnt powder. Raising the load to 20 only burns 80%, infact even 24 grains only consumes 88%; conclusion from the model, its the wrong powder.

AP70/Unique 7 grains looks like a good place to start 1300 fps 100% burn, in theory anyway!

[44man]

Why a .44? Well you could have the same problems. I figured as the gun got hotter, the more percentage of powder was burning. Heat soak rounds in the cylinder or chamber and more can burn.
I did notice with a cold gun I had more unburned powder. Then with each shot, velocity increased. each and every shot hit lower and lower. Anyway 4227 never goes in my .44 again.
Now in the max, it was supreme. I bought a Ruger .357 max and only had a 50 meter setting. Went to Youngstown Ohio to get settings at a shoot. I shot 39 out of 40 just sighting the gun.
Learning a gun means you need to interprate what each component is doing, from primer to lube.
It takes me 3 to 5 shots to see what is going on. Over 61 years shooting has taught me much because I don't read, I do the work. Bring your .44 loads here to shoot and I can tell you what primer you used.
ken waters states magnum loads of 2400 and 4227 loads should have never been listed but reduced loads are OK. He lists Unique, Herco and 4759. Brass does not last long and can get head separations. I would not push a 38-40 by adding more powder.
He stated a CCI LP mag primer worked better with 2400 and 4227 but I would dispute that in a revolver.

[andym79]

44 man sorry I mis understood what you were saying. So in the 44 mag H4227 was a questionable powder!

7 grains of Unique would be a better choice than hot rodding it with H4227 just to try and burn the powder, it is a 111 year old rifle, even though the 1892 was built strong. Now just to get a hold of some. If I can't it will be 9 grains of AP100 (closest powder SR4756).

[andym79]

Well I have search high and low for Unique and ADI AP70 to no avail, AP70 (Universal) should be available late February.

Trail boss works well but I am looking to get a bit more velocity for further out. Some suggested loads, using Clays and International make me a little uneasy as the fill only about 1/3 of the case.

I have been looking at it and I think ADI AP 100 or Vihtavuori 3N38 could be good powder for the 38-40. Loads using these powders 10 grains and 12 grains respectively should produce loads with clean burn over 1/2 fill and 1450 ish fps. however there is not load data for either of these powders. Has anyone used either powder in the 38-40?

I am reluctant to try these powders without real world trial even though QL predicts nothing untoward.

[Lloyd Smale]

4227 isn't a good powder for what your doing. It works well in magums at magnum pressures or in small rifle cases but is not a good powder to download. 2400 or even unique or herco would be a much better choise for you

[44man]

Powder selection is a hard thing since so many are listed in manuals. Might be 20 or more for your gun. But are all the same?
I fear 4198 too. It shot great with jacketed in my 45-70 revolver but when I went to cast, It started good until I had to pound out brass with a few shots, Not the whole cylinder full, just two.
A lesson learned so I kept testing to find 4759 was the best.
Pay attention as you load and shoot. I tried 3031 in the revolver to see about half the powder not burned but accuracy was good. I could outrun boolits.
Strange the very slow Varget burned all. I found Varget works with light bullets in the 7R and 7BR after hodgdon said NO.
Anyway I want hunting loads and Unique will never be my hunting powder.

[Lloyd Smale]

personally if it were my OLD 92 id be running mild unique or herco loads in it. I know the 92 will take a lot but if im going to hotrod the 3840 im going to use a new (cheaper) 92 like a rossi. Be a dirty crime to hurt that old classic.

[Lloyd Smale]

jim why would you want to force rifle powders into service in the 3840 when theres handgun powders that do much better. I can see them in your 4570 but not a 3840. Sure you can make them go bang but there just not efficient in a handgun sized case.

Powder selection is a hard thing since so many are listed in manuals. Might be 20 or more for your gun. But are all the same?
I fear 4198 too. It shot great with jacketed in my 45-70 revolver but when I went to cast, It started good until I had to pound out brass with a few shots, Not the whole cylinder full, just two.
A lesson learned so I kept testing to find 4759 was the best.
Pay attention as you load and shoot. I tried 3031 in the revolver to see about half the powder not burned but accuracy was good. I could outrun boolits.
Strange the very slow Varget burned all. I found Varget works with light bullets in the 7R and 7BR after hodgdon said NO.
Anyway I want hunting loads and Unique will never be my hunting powder.