Inconsistent burn using H4227 in 38/40

[andym79]

Hi guys, I have put about 1000 rounds through mu old 38-40 (Winchester 1892), its an accurate rifle and fun to shoot.

I have never had complete burn of the H4227, often unburnt kernels would fall into action on extraction, but the bullets always hit the target and usually very well. I clean it after each match 40 or 50 rounds.

Recently however the burn has become less consistent with some bullets missing the target, a couple hitting the dirt a few yards short of the target, recoil not that there was much has seemed lower. The final straw came on Saturday when I got a squib, it cost me 100 points and when we moved back I changed to my 32-20 (no sight setting at thatr distance).

The powder was from the same can as in previous matches, the load was the same 18 grains of H4227, triple checked, the primers were the same LP federal, brass Starline full sized, the alloys was the same PB 4:1 Lino.

I am thinking of quitting H4227 in the 38-40 as an un noticed squib would have cost me more than 100 points.

How can I improve burn consistency?

1. Use LR primers?
2. Drill lout flash holes a bit?
3. change to a faster powder, I only have Trailboss, but its a bit wimpy at 100 yards and N110 for which there is not load data. I would like some Unique, but can't get hold of it!
4. Use BP?

What do you think?

[d garfield]

Try putting a little crimp on them,it may help.

[shooter93]

Try more crimp...I use Unique in the 38-40 with good results if you want to try another powder.

[fouronesix]

The 92 should be plenty strong but the brass has its limits. I doubt that BP will be any better than light, fast burn rate, smokeless loads at getting to 100 yards. IIRC, 4227 had burn consistency issues in the past so I quite it long ago in favor of 2400 in these type applications.

My favorite light load smokeless powder in the 38-40 is Trailboss. For zippier loads in the 38-40 Win M92, I load 2400 under a fairly soft 180 gr RNFP bullet. Might try 2400 if it's available there. One caution though about the stiffer smokeless 38-40 loads- the possibility of some finding their way into old Colt revolvers- not good.

[andym79]

Try putting a little crimp on them,it may help.

I do crimp it, I should have added that to the load details, its a fairly firm crimp. Alas, if only I could get some unique its listed for so many cartridges!

The 92 should be plenty strong but the brass has its limits. I doubt that BP will be any better than light, fast burn rate, smokeless loads at getting to 100 yards. IIRC, 4227 had burn consistency issues in the past so I quite it long ago in favor of 2400 in these type applications.

My favorite light load smokeless powder in the 38-40 is Trailboss. For zippier loads in the 38-40 Win M92, I load 2400 under a fairly soft 180 gr RNFP bullet. Might try 2400 if it's available there. One caution though about the stiffer smokeless 38-40 loads- the possibility of some finding their way into old Colt revolvers- not good.

That's the bullet I am using, and how many grains of the 2400? That I can get if I want but only in 8lbs jugs.

[claude]

More powder, either (H/IMR)4227 likes a bit more pressure to burn clean. In my 357 mag it is very trashy, and just to slow for that revolver, in my 44 mag rifles at near max it cleans up well, but not so much in the revolver.

[fouronesix]

That's the bullet I am using, and how many grains of the 2400? That I can get if I want but only in 8lbs jugs.

I'd say 8# would last a while!

I load 15 grains 2400 under a 180 gr RNFP flat base bullet of about BHN 9. You'll have to work up the load to see where accuracy and leading might become problematic and of course to look for pressure signs.

The 45th Edition (and earlier editions) of the Lyman Reloading Handbook shows 2400 loads for 180 gr and 172 gr jacketed and cast bullets up to about 24 gr. That seems way too hot to me so I've never approached those levels. I'd start around 15 gr and work up cautiously. The 15 gr load should be close to the standard factory level for that cartridge.

At one time Win offered 38-40 factory ammo for rifles only (namely the Win 92) at about 1900 fps. But folks can't/don't read box labels or cautions and that blew up a few Colt revolvers, so Win quit making the high vel "rifle only" loads. I don't know the powder used for those early high vel rifle only loads. Currently the factory standard load for the 38-40 is around 1100-1200 fps and takes into consideration the possible use in older Win 73s and older Colt revolvers. The Lyman manual lists Unique as the powder to duplicate that factory velocity level. I also don't know the powder used in more recent factory 38-40s loaded to those standardized, moderate vel levels.

[w30wcf]

andym79,
You might try magnum pistol primers. That is what I use with 4227 in my .44-40 '73 Winchester and Marlin Cowboy .44-40. I've burned about 12# of 4227 in that application under 205-215 gr cast bullets.

Large rifle primers are taller than pistol primers and require a deeper primer pocket than what is in your brass.

In my experience with the .44-40, it is pretty tough to beat the consistency and accuracy that b.p. can provide. I would expect the same to be true with the .38-40.

However, it requires a combination of right bullet, b.p. lube and the right b.p. to get these results at a pretty consistent 1,330 f.p.s..........


What weight bullet are you using?

w30wcf

[Mr Peabody]

I had better luck in my 44-40 using a mag pistol primer instead of the standard ones, too close to max loads are better than starting loads.

[fouronesix]

1. Use LR primers?
2. Drill lout flash holes a bit?
3. change to a faster powder, I only have Trailboss, but its a bit wimpy at 100 yards and N110 for which there is not load data. I would like some Unique, but can't get hold of it!
4. Use BP?

What do you think?

The Win 92 is plenty strong for reasonable smokeless loads. You can use BP if you want and it will likely work well but it will require a whole new work up for extended competitive range sessions and a different cleaning requirement for both the gun and the brass. It will produce about the same velocity as the standard smokeless factory type loads. 32-34 gr BP will give about 1250 fps with your bullet. The velocity SDs for good smokeless loads and good BP loads will be about the same. If you want 1400-1500 fps for better trajectory to 100 yds, smokeless will easily do it but BP cannot do it.

As to the magnum primers?- I wouldn't. They can cause erratic performance in certain loads. The 38-40 is a small, fairly high expansion ratio cartridge and does not require a magnum primer to ignite the types of powder that are useful in the 38-40- including BP. I also see no reason to use LR primers.

As to enlarging the primer flash hole?- I see no reason to do it and have never understood the reason to do it. Although I read about it all the time???

[44man]

Not strange to read this. 4227's were the worst powders I ever tried in the .44 mag too. The only powder for the .357 max though. There seems to be a caliber specific use with the powder.
In a few cases it gets very heat sensitive. I found pressures and velocity increasing more and more with each shot in the .44 revolver.
It was so bad that at 200 meters I would be 16 clicks too high on the sight and still hit the ground 50 meters short. Primers dead flat so I reduced the load with the same results.

[w30wcf]

The Win 92 is plenty strong for reasonable smokeless loads. You can use BP if you want and it will likely work well but it will require a whole new work up for extended competitive range sessions and a different cleaning requirement for both the gun and the brass. It will produce about the same velocity as the standard smokeless factory type loads. 32-34 gr BP will give about 1250 fps with your bullet. The velocity SDs for good smokeless loads and good BP loads will be about the same. If you want 1400-1500 fps for better trajectory to 100 yds, smokeless will easily do it but BP cannot do it.

As to the magnum primers?- I wouldn't. They can cause erratic performance in certain loads. The 38-40 is a small, fairly high expansion ratio cartridge and does not require a magnum primer to ignite the types of powder that are useful in the 38-40- including BP. I also see no reason to use LR primers.

As to enlarging the primer flash hole?- I see no reason to do it and have never understood the reason to do it. Although I read about it all the time???

If accuracy is the most sought after requirement at 100, then velocity becomes secondary. Actually, there is less wind deflection with <1,100 f.p.s. loads than there is with 1,500> ones.

Perhaps magnum pistol primers give erratic performance in some situations, but not this one in my experience. The .38-40 and .44-40 have pretty much the same case capacity and only a slight difference in bore size that I wold consider them almost one in the same. I say that based on working with loads for a friends .38-40 awhile back.


I found that the mag primers work better than the standard because of the lower pressure loads (15,000) with slower burning powder. Now as more powder is being used and the pressures increases (safe in the '92 but not a '73), the need for hotter ignition disappears as the powder reaches its more ideal pressure range. I found that out in testing higher velocity .44-40 loads.

With b.p. I find that the milder the primer the better.

Speaking of b.p., if one uses a duplex load, say 4 to 6 grs. of 4227 under a compressed load of b.p. and a bullet lubed with b.p. lube like SPG, accuracy should be pretty good and the barrel can be cleaned like smokeless. The cases may still need to be washed in soap and water but if enough 4227 (probably 6 grs) is used, one likely will not need to.

w30wcf

[45-70 Chevroner]

If you can stretch the budget I would get the 8# jug of Unique. I have a lot of Unique and use it a lot. IMHO it is the best all around powder made. I'll get some flack for that.

[w30wcf]

Not strange to read this. 4227's were the worst powders I ever tried in the .44 mag too. The only powder for the .357 max though. There seems to be a caliber specific use with the powder.
In a few cases it gets very heat sensitive. I found pressures and velocity increasing more and more with each shot in the .44 revolver.
It was so bad that at 200 meters I would be 16 clicks too high on the sight and still hit the ground 50 meters short. Primers dead flat so I reduced the load with the same results.

I wonder if you had a bad lot of 4227(?). David Bradshaw, holder of the The IHMSA World Revolver Aggregate IHMSA (early1990’s), used 23/4227 in his Freedom Arms Casull .44 Magnum and was pictured beside the 150M turkey swinger with 5 shots averaging not too far from deadcenter.

I find 4227 to be the ideal powder in .45 Colt Ruger type loads with a capacity load under a 250 gr. bullet giving good accuracy and consistency. With 300+ gr bullets, H110 / W296 gets the nod.

w30wcf

[fouronesix]

I wonder if you had a bad lot of 4227(?).

w30wcf

The same thought crossed my mind. Maybe that can went bad? Maybe some lube migrated into some of the loaded rounds?

Hard to account for some rounds doing fine and some being semi-squibs. 4227 and 2400 are very similar powders and I've had no ignition problems with either powder. But, I began noticing some irregularities with 4227 in certain loads a long time ago and have used 2400 since. Sometimes cartridges in that class of volume and design have ignition problems with the some of the high performance ball powders in really cold weather. A few years ago 44 Mag gunners starting reporting problems with delayed ignition with certain ball powders in really cold weather- like zero deg F. I can't imagine that happening with normal use of 2400 or in warmer weather. And I certainly don't think that would be happening in Aus.

[Mugs]

Try a filler for better powder position. Would also keep any possible lube away from powder.

Mugs

[rsrocket1]

Trail Boss is a little too fast of a burning powder for your application and 4227 is a little too slow. Since you are in Australia, I would assume ADI powders would be easier to obtain and rumor has it that they had started production again and may even be shipping some out this way . Try ADI AP100 or AP70N, AP70N is what we buy here (when it was last available) as Hodgdon Universal "Clays". It is their competition to Alliant's Unique. AP100 is slower and should get you higher velocities than AP70N and better burn than 4227, although something like about 5 grains of AP70N may be all you need.

If you are anywhere near a store that sells ADI powders, let us know if they are available. AS30N, AS50N and AP70N (Clays, International and Universal) have been non-existent here for a very long time since the drying room fire at ADI.

[44man]

I wonder if you had a bad lot of 4227(?). David Bradshaw, holder of the The IHMSA World Revolver Aggregate IHMSA (early1990’s), used 23/4227 in his Freedom Arms Casull .44 Magnum and was pictured beside the 150M turkey swinger with 5 shots averaging not too far from deadcenter.

I find 4227 to be the ideal powder in .45 Colt Ruger type loads with a capacity load under a 250 gr. bullet giving good accuracy and consistency. With 300+ gr bullets, H110 / W296 gets the nod.

w30wcf

No, used both IMR and Hodgdon. I used the same load as David too.
Actually my smallest group at 200 meters was with 4227 but it was cold out and I shot very slow.
I thought I had it made in the shade until on the line.
I had to turn my gun to see if it was bent.
The guys cussing up a storm all were using 4227.

[d garfield]

i find that if you use a little crimp it is more consistent, I know they tell you don,t have to crimp but I always use some.

[rbertalotto]

Squib? Bullet not reaching the target? Unburnt powder getting into the action?......And you are 110% positive you had a proper load?......Then you have a can of bad powder.

Can't think of anything else it could be.