Soggy patch fix

[barrabruce]

Probably try all of the above things soon enough.
I did get my guns hook of the shotgun type action welded up and I filed/refitted it.
No doubt that it was one of my main problems with getting things to shoot in it.
I have probably lost a couple of years work down the drain and most likley have re do alot of stuff again.
I know that if I size my cases and be just over groove diameter well seated with a hard wrap and a sealed paper and then an alox coat and then a coat of grahite or flour to stop the alox sticking in the case necks it does shoot.

But I'm more happy not having to size my cases at all and use a fuller filed chamber.

About the only thing I can say for sure is if I put a cardboard wad under the pp bullet then a small grease wad with the log powders then I have better results.
I believe that the gas flow from the bullet exiting the case neck is sealed off better filling the gap of the bullet chamber clearance and helps on the start of the bullet base getting a good start into the rifling.
Well just for a micro second anyway.
I have to work up the load as it does increase pressures or seems to change the harmonics in my rifle thou.

I have loads for 2206h and 2207 but 2206 which is in between them (no longer made) my rifle just hates for some reason.

Any way back to soggy patch fixes and all things pp.
I asked my brother about bees wax and he says that the hive glue that the bees use is just tree resin and wax.
And after you melt it and and get all the legs and capping muck out its pure.

Just wondering if that bee glue could be worth exploring ..not that I have a hive or such.

Bruce

[Cary Gunn]

Howdy again, gents,

I just re-read this entire thread and realized I'd missed some important points earlier, such as Barra having earlier said he's tried waxing as a waterproofer some time ago without success, and passed off the waxing process as applicable only to low-velocity calibers.

I'm wondering, Barra, what went wrong with your waxed loads? Was it, simply, that the waxed loads were inaccurate for you, or was there some other problem with the waxed boolits?

Also I note, Barra, that you report problems with 4th and 5th-shot fliers in your groups, and I commiserate with you. I, too, have found that a problem with my Spanish Mauser. I seem to shoot the first 3 shots of a 5-shot group into a single ragged hole, but far too often the 4th and 5th shots open the group to greater than twice the size of the previous 3-shot spread. It happens so regularly that I'm beginning to question whether it's just "shooter error" or something more mysterious at work.

If it is shooter error, why don't the fliers ever occur during the first 3 shots of the group? But, it seems the first 3 are always tight and the last 2 shots greatly widen the 5-shot group.

I'm certainly not causing it by conscious intent, and it seems unlikely the rifle would know whether a particular shot was, say, the 4th shot of a 5-shot group or the 1st shot of a new 3-shot group. But, seemingly, way too often to be mere happenstance, the first 3 boolits plop close together, and shots 4 and 5 widen things up. And, the same thing happens with the next series of 5 -- the 1st 3 closely packed, and next 2 ruining the tight group.

It happens so often that I've taken to checking with the spotting scope after the 3rd shot, and, if I see a tight group, I just switch to a new target so as not to spoil things. And, usually, the next two shots at the new target join the next shot for another tight 3-shot group.

I don't see how it could be attributable to a slight "wondering zero" problem due to barrel heating or poor bedding, since the two shots that would have been fliers if fired as shots 4 and 5 of a 5-shot group, invariably form a tight group with shot no. 6 if they're fired on a new fresh target as a 3-shot group.

Maybe I should just switch entirely to 3-shot groups, if I wish to report boolit clusters under 3/4-inch. Or, maybe I should just start going to church more often, if I ever hope to report really tight 5-shot groups.

Or, maybe, I should just be satisfied with iron-sighted 50-yard groups of 1.5 inches for five shots, even if three of the boolits have plunked into a tight, little nest of 1/2 or 5/8 inches within the larger grouping.

If anybody -- including, even, you dizzy statisticians -- has an explanation for the seeming phenomenon of tight 3-shotters and wide 5-shotters, I'd like to hear it.

But, back on the subject of paper-patch waterproofing, the only problem I've found with soaking patched boolits in molten canning wax paraffin is that the patches sometimes slip on the boolits when sized after waxing.

I've found it better to do all necessary sizing before the wax soak. The patches cling tightly to the lead that way, and easily release that grip when the boolit leaves the muzzle. If I size the paper-patched boolits after the wax bath, though, I sometimes get lose patches that can slip on the boolit.

I've a buddy who lives in the rainy Northwest of the U.S., and he reports excellent results using canning wax as a waterproofer for the paper-patched fodder he brews for his 11.4x51mm Danish rolling block rifle. He uses slightly shortened .45-70 cases in the old Dane, and loads waxed .467" diameter, 400-grain PPB's ahead of 25 grains of 4198 powder with a tuft of Dacron for 3-shot, 50-yard, iron-sight groups often as small as a half-inch. In my estimation, that's mighty fine shooting for any iron-sighted rifle, let alone a rifle approaching it's 150th birthday.

I wish I and my rifles could consistently do the same.

One of my next projects will be trying the Old Coot's suggestion of soaking my PPB's in a solution of "xylene or xylol" and canning wax, rather than soaking in "heat-melted" wax. It's just a question of locating that "xylene" solvent at paint stores in my area. Can't say I've ever seen the product offered around here, but, I've never looked for it either.

I also plan to try adding some lanolin to the canning wax to see if it helps stop patch slippage when sizing waxed PPB's. Again, it's just a problem of finding a source of lanolin locally. I'll try the pharmacies first.

I might also try to check my penny-pinching habits, release the moths from my wallet, and pop for 10 bucks worth of real beeswax. It's "stickier" than canning wax, and, might better allow sizing of waxed PPB's without patch slippage.

But, then again, if Dan Cash's shellac-coat waterproofing is working for Barra, I wonder if it's worth the bother to try all this other stuff? The only thing keeping me going is that I've never found any shooting or reloading to be worthless -- it's always fun and there's always something to learn.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[barrabruce]

What went wrong with my waxed loads.
Well went and tried a few today.
No joy about 4-6" spread at 100yrds. The patch seems to come off as being unwrapped e thou I could findn't one but could see it fling off to the right when shot.
They are wrapped wet dried and then soaked in melted 50/50 bees wax /Vaseline lube with a touch of lanolin for a few minutes till the bullets hot then placed on a piece of grease proof paper on there basses till cool.
They come out the gun pretty slick thou and shoot "cool" compared to other stuff.

My particular bore has 4 grooves but the lands are very narrow compared to normal rifling and a bit shallow.
I can only think that it softens the paper somewhat and I'm not cutting thou the patch for a clean get away at the muzzle.

Horrors of horrors for me today as I loaded some soaked shellac bullets with a different powder and a few loads that should have worked I thought.
Play around with plain base for a while and adjusted the scope instead of using hold over.
Started using PP again and yes it was the right numbers the wrong way.
Only 24 minutes of angle high at 100 yrds so missed the paper all together !!!! errrgh.
Still 3 out of 5 at 100 yrds in about an inch or so with some loads.
After about 3 shots my barrel starts to get hot and I think that I'm sizzling the wax after 10 rounds and burning fingers.
May be I'm melting the lube.
Boiling point of beeswax is only 85 c so it wouldn't take much to melt this lube in a warm chamber.
The dipped shellac and finger lubed with 50/50 comes out the barrel in a grey mist that sort of looks like like you are shooting some sort of blackpowder. No confetti and the barrel does get hot quick if you hammer a few off.

Maybe I need to shoot one round off every 5 minutes or so.
They really do go Booom thou.
Think its because the bore is sealed right to the end of release.

Hope it helps.
Barra

[barrabruce]

I believe xyelne may be pretty big bad medicine to play with.
If I have it right it can take your breath away and can be absorbed in you skin and cause cancer and other nasty effects.
Since your feet hands and face are the most prone to absorbing chemicals you may wanna take precautions and use a fan and avoid soaking your hands in it.
Does get the grease /paint and muck of your hands quick thou!!!!

But I maybe completely wrong thou!!
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[303Guy]

Marker pens make a big thing on being xylene free.

The main effect of inhaling xylene vapor is depression of the central nervous system, with symptoms such as headache, dizziness, nausea and vomiting.

Long-term exposure may lead to headaches, irritability, depression, insomnia, agitation, extreme tiredness, tremors, impaired concentration and short-term memory.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/

[Old Coot]

barrabruce: Yes xylene, toluene, benzene is bad for you. They are all carcinogens. But are nothing compared to plain gasoline and diesel fuel. In fact any road paved with asphalt is a an ILLEGAL TOXIC WASTE DUMP. Asphalt is what is left over after the refinery has gotten everything that is good and usable as fuel, chemicals, lubricants out of the crude oil. That black gooey tar-like substance contains all the heavy metals present in the origional crude oil. Cobalt, chromium, lead, manganese, molybdinum, etc. are all much more dangerous to us biochemically than the lead we play with that so many fret about.

Xylene is simply benzene with CH3 tacked on it. Benzene is the real nasty or parent nasty of the bunch. If you are going to use it just do so in a well ventilated area. Use a fan if available, or just out of doors if not.

When you are trying to waterproof your patches, try not using such drastic methods. A light coat of shellac diluted one part of one pound cut to ten parts of alcohol. You are only trying to keep atmospheric water from being absorbed. Not to take them diving with you. If a 1:10 dilution doesn't work try 1:8 and so on until thing look up. Same thing with the wax: dissolve some in xylene or toluene and dip the patched and dried bullet in it. Let dry, load, and shoot, repeat until they don't suck up moisture and give acceptable accuracy. I would start with a 10% or 20% solution of bees wax and solute , or 10 grams of wax to 100 ml of xylene or toluene. Again if that doesn't work try a larger percentage of wax. Generally, most try to stay away from paraffin because it is a petroleum product, and degrades to a dark tarry mess I am told. \

Good luck\
Brodie

[303Guy]

What else can be used to dissolve wax?

I used to work with coal tar as a fuel and had to use toluene to clean the stuff off components and my hands! I generally tried to keep it off me and used a pink barrier cream to clean the stuff off my hands. I'm not dead yet and still don't have cancer (other than a basal cell carcinoma from sun exposure). My memory isn't what it used to be and so on but then I'm not sixteen years old anymore either. So it's not going to kill you if you get a whiff of it but avoid it just the same as Brodie has suggested.