Soggy patch fix

[barrabruce]

Well like a bull out of a gate I kicked up the dust and floated into town and found me some fine clear highly re-fined metho of 95% ethanol.
I don't drink grog so getting shellaced on the goom (name given to metho when drank) has no concern for me.
Went and mixed 'er up and seemed to have dissolved pretty good my the morning.
Wrapped and loaded up some ammo to try with every variation I could think of.
Seemed to have little or no effect on group size.
Mess of pink dots (althou some where being treacherous and tricky and shot a few close together )
I loaded most with 32 2206h and 4 grns 785ww as a reactive filler.

Finally a light bulb went on when I figured that wiping after I had a flyer may help a bit

You can see the mess in the middle of the target where I tried to show that wiping and then the next shot placement.
After each group I would pacth out and figured that my patches were not holding up with lack of lube or not good enough.
The last 4 groups were shot with extra lube applied and groups shrank when I got back down to my normal level of powder loads.

I shot a few plain base loads and sighted it back in for them and shot a 5x group of 0.55" at 50yrds with the last few I had so the shellac didn't seem to accumulate in the bore and effect things ..or ed's red disloves it easily with a patch..

Now I have to load a few and trail the out in the rain for a month and see if they don't get water logged and still shoot.
May seal the primers with a bit of nail polish just to be sure.
Attachment 131645

Attachment 131646

Attachment 131647

[Dan Cash]

Day before yesterday, the 11th of March 2015, I recovered my ammo which has been exposed since back in January, the 25th I think, and shot it. This ammo consisted of 5 rounds with shellacked bullets and 5 rounds of standard lubed patch bullets. The cases were full length resized, neck flared with an M die and no crimp. The charge in the .30-40 was 43 grains of Reloader 19 and the bullets from an Accurate mould weigh 215 grains and are cast 20:1.

Thesee are the cartridges and bullets prior to exposure to the elements.

The ammo and bullets were fully exposed to the North Dakota winter until 11 March by placing them in a open mesh strainer where snow and surprisingly a 1/2 inch rainfall played freely upon them but they did not lay in a pool of water. After the exposure the ammo looked like this.

Please note that one of the lubricated patch rounds is missing. The dog ate it? Don't know but it was gone. Patches were tight and showed no sign of deterioration.

Shooting was done at 100 yards from a bench. Temp was 47F and wind at 15mph from 9 oclock. The shellacked bullets are witnessed on the top and the lubricated bullets on the bottom. Sights are a ghost ring peep on rear and copper bead on front and accuracy seems on par with normally stored and handled ammo. I have done better shooting but this seems about as good as I can do this spring. Getting old at 68.

In conclusion, if fighting a rough and wet environment, both shellac (1 1/2 lb cut) and a bees wax based lube with lanolin both seem to provide good protection for the ammo. There was no evident deterioration of the patched but unloaded shellacked bullets. Though I don't have the extreme humidity that plagues Barabruce, I do store patched bullets in an air tight container before loading.

Dan

[barrabruce]

,Hey thats was a great test.
Thankyou very much Dan
I won't be able to go shooting down the range for a week or so depending on what happens to the weather but I loaded 5 shells today and dipped them in shellac and then put a drop in the primers and rubbed off leaving a fine ring of shellac in the primer seat.
Put them out in the weather for a baking and a raining /blowing.

Been caught up in my nieces wedding the last week or two and in between standing to attention and helping the wife where necessary I bought another boat.
Didn't plan on it ...it just came up so I grabbed it.

Between raining and 34 deg heat ; a friend and I managed to test run the 'ol girl and fixed a few things and ran some crab pots for a few crabs for the new outlaws..being from down sth and inland some...to give em a taste of real seafood.

Weather has taken a dive to only 29 deg C and 79% humidity so enjoying the cool while we got it.
Still raining and blowing a bit.
Me 50/50 bees wax /vasalene lube has gone appreciably harder to rub on the patches with this cold snap.
Only blowing 20-30 knots so no fun fishing or trying to shoot a good score at the range.....althou It don't usually bother be so much if I'm up for it.

I'll give you an update when I can get out again.
( hurt me hip n back playing boat mechanic today and will be sore and sorry tomorrow so no shooting for me)

[barrabruce]

Something to take your mind off jack frost for those who are suffering the bitter chill climate.
Attachment 133976
My abode...built like a brick **** house...well proven cat 5 cyclone proof anyway . (std coverts apply)
Didn't rain today nice and sunny but shall return soon enough,
Nice comfortable 22 to 32 deg c night/day.
Better weed the garden before it rains again.
Bloody weeds grow faster than lawn......it only grows when its hot and humid
Bet you cold folk forgot what a lawn mower is by now
Range testing of ammo on a Sunday soon I hope.
Cheers

[barrabruce]

Well weather turned good so I had to go and get some fish for the freezer while one can.

Back on track and the test bullets I left out in the weather through rain wind and sun turned out a bit scruffy in the end.
Sorry no pic but the shellac sort of washed off in the end and the paper got wet but I let them dry and took them down to the range to see if they'd fire off.
These test loads we loaded in my "Short neck Std length cases" dipped in the shellac and a drop around the primer to seal them also.
The cases showed water tarnish marks but o.k.
I figure they'd be good if I got'em wet and wiped off dry if I got soaked shooting but not long term exposure of days or weeks.
Results were surprising.
Attachment 136772
Test load at 100 yrds Stringing horzontal
Attachment 136773
Control group not exposed at 100yrds.
About average for short brass and this load in mine maybe a bit worse than normal.
Attachment 136774
5 shot group loaded in my longer necked fitted cases same loads.
Still getting flyers after 3 shots in my gun.
Groups were shot after bore was cleaned and allowed to cool between groups.
Groups were shot 5 in a row and no time to let barrell cool.
I'm still getting build up of a tight patch near the muzzle.
May try some thing different but with a single shot and 3 good shots it should be about as much as I could hope for in the real world if I was hunting till the mob or animal has succumbed or scrambled off in a cloud of dust.
Heeheee.

Dunno if I will ever figure out how to get this gun to shoot.
Could be the loose nut behind the butt too.
So can't complain about the shellac dipping and it was good for Dan to send me a life times supply.
I will be messing around with it some more but happy with what it can do for me and my gun as is.
Barra

[Dan Cash]

Barra, I like your house but the surrounding jungle looks like lots of work to keep it from over running things. Try letting your shellack evaporate a bit so that it is thicker. A good coat will look shiney and offeer more resistance to the elements. You mention you are getting somekind of build up at the muzzle. I will have to check my PP rifles and see what they are doing.

Bed time,
Dan

[303Guy]

I like your house but the surrounding jungle looks like lots of work to keep it from over running things.

I like that kind of surrounding. Jungle is fine by me - in fact, it's preferable. Great place you have there!

[Cary Gunn]

Howdy Barra,

Paul Matthews, the modern godfather of the patched projectile, waterproofed his PPB's by just soaking in melted yellow beeswax.

In his book, "The Paper Jacket," Matthews demonstrated his technique using a small basket he constructed of hardware cloth, in which he placed his freshly paper-patched offerings, and which he subsequently dunked in a pan of liquified pure beeswax. He allowed everything to soak for 10 minutes (long enough to allow the boolits to absorb not only the wax, but also enough heat so the heated boolits would allow excess wax to drain off without creating a thick coagulated surface layer when the basket was pulled from the wax bath.

After allowing the basket and contents to drain, he dumped the still-hot boolits into a flat pan lined with paper towels and rolled them across the toweling to remove more excess wax.

Finally, after allowing a full day for the wax to harden and shrink to it's fullest extent, he rubbed the waxed, patched boolits with powdered graphite as a lube.

Matthews specially noted he tried waxes other than yellow beeswax, and they didn't work. He also tried soaking boolits in his usual lube mix of beeswax/Vaseline, and that didn't work well either. So, he waterproofed only with pure beeswax, and he lubed waterproofed boolits only with wiped-on powdered graphite. Only his non-waterproofed paper-patched fodder got the usual lube mix of beeswax/Vaseline.

Matthews thought waterproofing important for "field-use" ammunition that might be exposed to rain or other moisture. He devoted an entire chapter, eight pages (pages 93-101), of "The Paper Jacket" to the subject.

I haven't tried the beeswax soak yet, but I can attest to the lubrication benefits of powdered graphite wiped onto patched boolits.

Anyway, that's what Matthews had to say on the subject. He also noted that most of the European armies using the paper-patch in the late Nineteenth Century waterproofed with similar wax processes.

Here's to dry patches, good shootin', and happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[303Guy]

I find it interesting that beeswax would work for water proofing. Beeswax is quite sticky which would make me think it would inhibit patch separation from the core. But Mathews states yellow beeswax. When I was a kid I boiled wild honey combs and got a yellow wax that was more like candle wax. Is that what he was referring to?

[Old Coot]

Yep, thats the stuff. Wax from Bees. Those little flying bugs that sting and make honey. Vastly preferable to petroleum products for some reason. I think that it is in the formulation and length of the carbon chains and how they react to heat and pressure. Very few (if any) petroleum waxes are used in bullet lubes. Mathews probably put the graphite or Mica on the waxed bullets to negate the stickiness. Brodie

[303Guy]

Thanks. Well, I happen to like beeswax so I'll give it a try for this purpose although I might try dissolving it in something to make application easier. For me water proofing is essential for my pig gun which is intended for hunting in the bush and the rain. Is there any reason not to water proof the whole gun with beeswax or a beeswax mix?

[Cary Gunn]

303Guy,

Your concerns about the wax causing patches to stick to fired boolits was shared by Matthews, and he noted that allowing the waxed, patched slugs to cool and dry for an entire day resulted in "shrinkage" of the wax, apparently causing it to release any "grip" it might have had on the projectile surface. He also said that another wax he tried, a "layout wax" used in a type-setting or printing process of some sort, did not work well since it caused the exact problem that concerns you -- it waterproofed the PPB well, but it also caused the patch to stick to the boolit after firing, thus destroying accuracy.

In regard to your suggestion of dissolving beeswax in another product to make application easier, I believe Matthews would have advised caution. His usual patched boolit lubricant was a mix of beeswax and Vaseline (petroleum jelly). While that lube mix worked well for him as far as accuracy was concerned, it apparently wasn't "up to snuff" as a waterproofer, otherwise he would have just used the lube for both purposes and would never have developed the pure beeswax soak for waterproofing, followed by graphite powdering for lubricant.

Matthews specifically mentioned that he tried, without success, soaking boolits in melted boolit lube, the common beeswax/Alox mix. He didn't say why that didn't work, but wrote it off as unsuccessful.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[barrabruce]

. Try letting your shellack evaporate a bit so that it is thicker. A good coat will look shiney and offeer more resistance to the elements. You mention you are getting somekind of build up at the muzzle. I will have to check my PP rifles and see what they are doing.


Dan

shellac has thickened on its own 'cos the glass jar I used to syhon off a bit must have the wrong lid on it. ooops
The build up near the muzzle is normal for me as the barrell tapers down with in rough resonable dimensions.
It has a constriction there about an inch or so from the muzzle then opens up slightly.
Think is from a front sight being brazed on it or just is.
Can't seem to do much with it thou..just have to wear it.
still shoots pp and cast well enough for me.
Still trying to get consistency but I think it tears,builds up then blows out some of the paper fouling which I'm not supposed to get.
(need someone with a bore scope to see whats really going on...maybe a doctor could use a proctor scope if I could get one interested.)
O.K. O.k. I know I'm full of it haaahaaa

I may go back to a wax wad under the bullet and pre condition the bore with some 50/50 bw/vas.
Its gotten harder now the temps have dropped 10 deg c

Jungle isn't mine but I'm convinced that it's slowly marching down hill to engulf me.
Call me paranoid but its true...I'm sure its gained several
yards in the last ten years!!!

Welcome Carey

I though that mathews was more into bigger slower stuff like 45-70 .
I gave the wax ago ages ago and didn't have any miracle results so passed it off as a ol thumper lower velocity thing.
I got some bees wax is yellow ...with the legs and honey smell and cappings etc in it.
I believe that it has the miro cystal errrgh good sticky ****e in it.
Once you heat it up and pour it on water to separate the floating and sinking stuff and you get it too hot it kills that stuff.
But it comes out all white and pretty thou.

My long lost rich (I hope) bee keeper brother shall be here to visit soon so I'll pick his feeble brain upon the matter if he hasn't had one to many stings.

Thanks all.
Been busy studying after too may years break.
Haven't got much study done but lots of jobs around the place have been done instead.
So if I ..well ..fail ...I would have achieved something good out of it anyways.
Barra

[Cary Gunn]

Barra,

You're right, Matthews was a big fan of the old .45 Govt. cartridge, but he also played with somewhat speedier toys, such as the .375 H&H Magnum, .458 Win. Magnum., .30-40 Kraq, etc. While none were true "speed demons," all were quicker than the .45-70.

Matthews probably wouldn't have approved, but last night I soaked some papered boolits in a tin can of melted paraffin (canning wax). When drained and dried, I lubed the result with liquid car wax, sized to .310" diameter, shoved the PPB's into some Lake City 7.62 brass, and smeared some powdered graphite on the exposed surface of the boolits.

The cartridges are stuffed with a compressed, duplexed load of Hercules 2400 (very old, pre-Alliant stuff) and WC 872 surplus 20mm cannon powder.

I plan to head to the range later this morning to learn just how badly I failed in making accurate boolits. Assuming I return in one piece, I'll report back here with the findings.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[barrabruce]

wonder if Cary blew himself up??

Haven't done anything for a bit but when things settle down I might do some more.
Couldn't be bothered going to the range from the **** one gets by the elite know all, done nothing crowd for a while.

[Old Coot]

They do seem to be everywhere don't they. What I love is not saying a thing and letting my wife out shoot them. Bot "She Who Must Not Be Named" and Janet are a lot better shots than most of those loud mouthed know it alls.
Brodie

[Cary Gunn]

Barra,

I'm still kickin', having kept most of my limbs intact, despite a brief range session involving a couple of very old powders and a somewhat "iffy" experimental reloading technique.

The results were better than I expected or, probably, deserve: a five-shot, 50 yard group of about 1.5 inches, shot with iron sights from a battered, but beautiful Spanish Mauser, and tossing paper-patched Lee C312-160-2R boolits treated with a coating of ordinary paraffin (canning) wax.

It makes me wonder why paraffin usually gets a bad rap from cast shooters. I applied it as a patch water-proofer, using the technique propounded by Paul Matthews in applying a beeswax water-proofing to his paper-patched fodder.

The only change from the Matthews method was my use of canning wax instead of beeswax.
The melted paraffin produced an incredibly tough patch that I'm sure would have withstood a monsoon without turning limp.

After the paraffin dried and set, I finger-wiped the patched boolits with Turtle Wax Carnuba Car Wax (a liquid, lotion-like product), and set them ahead of 3 grains of 2400 and 49 grains of WC 872 surplus powder in a compressed load in "LC LR 11" military 7.62/51mm brass. After the boolits were seated to a depth such that the lands of the old Spanish harlot marked the patch for about 3/16-inch along the side of the boolit, I rubbed the exposed portion of the PPB's with powdered graphite.

I'd only loaded five of the "test" rounds, and, as I said, they plunked into a fairly decent iron-sight group of 1 1/2 inches, which is pretty close to as good a my 65-year-old orbs will allow. That group included the first shot from a cold, freshly cleaned bore, but I suspect the group could have been reduced had a "sighted" shooter been on the bench.

Anyway, I was pleased by the outcome, but remain a little skeptical, and wonder if those five shots were just a "fluke" group. I've heard so much negative about the use of paraffin wax for just about any cast boolit application, that I was surprised by the result.

I figure the results demand a retest, and I've got a handful of paraffin-waxed, paper-patched .310 diameter slugs waiting on the loading bench to be stuffed into more 7.62 NATO cases. Tuesday will likely be my earliest opportunity to shoot those loads in a retest of the canning wax coating. I'm hoping they confirm the results of the last range session, rather than show that result to have been a fluke.

I'll let you know the verdict.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[303Guy]

Interesting. What is the difference between candle wax and canning wax? I have two types of candle wax (from tea candles), the normal 'white' candles and a fairly hard, honey coloured wax. The latter looks and feels similar to a wax used for surfboards or something (which I also have).

[Dan Cash]

Interesting. What is the difference between candle wax and canning wax? I have two types of candle wax (from tea candles), the normal 'white' candles and a fairly hard, honey coloured wax. The latter looks and feels similar to a wax used for surfboards or something (which I also have).

Candles are normally made from paraffin wax which is canning wax. High grade "dripless" candles are made from bees wax. There are differing preparations of paraffin for such applications as ski wax blends for different hardness and temperature range.

I have never tried waterproofing with paraffin as it is not on my casting bench and it is not as pliable as bees wax. For at least one member, paraffin seems to work very well in a limited test. Old timers probably did not use paraffin wax as it was not readily available and bees wax was.

[Old Coot]

Barabruce, If your shellac has thickened just add more alcohol. It won't hurt the shellac and you can thin it to the desired consistency.

For you guys who are using waxes as waterproofing agents try this: Take some xylene or xylol and dissolve your wax or paraffin in it. Make up something less than a saturated solution (no more wax will dissolve in the solute), and soak your patched and dried (if you wet patch) bullets in it. The wax will infiltrate the paper and when dried will be left behind by the xylene. Do this in well ventilated areas only. If you have made a dense enough wax solution the patch will be waterproof and not have a heavy film of wax on the outside. The wax will act as both a water proofing agent and a lubricant.

Baqrra; Did you ever try a more dilute solution of shellac? A more dilute shellac solution may work better and be more accurate than your one or one and a half pound cut. Dilute the origional cut about one part to six to ten and see how it works.
Brodie