Soggy patch fix

[Old Coot]

Shellac is sold in two forms : Flakes to which ethyl alcohol is added, and liquid which has already been made into a liquid. The raw shellac, which contains bark shavings and lac bugs removed during scraping, is placed in canvas tubes (much like long socks) and heated over a fire. This causes the shellac to liquify, and it seeps out of the canvas, leaving the bark and bugs behind. The thick, sticky shellac is then dried into a flat sheet and broken into flakes, or dried into "buttons" (pucks/cakes), then bagged and sold. The end-user then crushes it into a fine powder and mixes it with ethyl alcohol prior to use, to dissolve the flakes and make liquid shellac.

It is used in wood finishing especially musical instruments, and in certain applications in electrical motor (Wikipedia), it is also used in fingernail polish. The thickness (concentration) of shellac is measured by the unit "pound cut", referring to the amount (in pounds) of shellac flakes dissolved in a gallon of denatured alcohol. For example: a 1-lb. cut of shellac is the strength obtained by dissolving one pound of shellac flakes in a gallon of alcohol. Most pre-mixed commercial preparations come at a 3-lb. cut. Multiple thin layers of shellac produce a significantly better end result than a few thick layers. Thick layers of shellac do not adhere to the substrate or to each other well, and thus can peel off with relative ease; in addition, thick shellac will obscure fine details in carved designs in wood and other substrates.
Shellac naturally dries to a high-gloss sheen. For applications where a flatter (less shiny) sheen is desired, products containing amorphous silica,^[8] such as "Shellac Flat," may be added to the dissolved shellac.
Shellac naturally contains a small amount of wax (3%-5% by volume), which comes from the lac bug. In some preparations, this wax is removed (the resulting product being called "dewaxed shellac"). This is done for applications where the shellac will be coated with something else (such as paint or varnish), so the topcoat will adhere. Waxy (non-dewaxed) shellac appears milky in liquid form, but dries clear.

After a google search I found that it is also called: confectioners glaze, resinous glaze,beetle juice, pharmaceutical glaze, natural glaze, and Lac-Resin. You are most likely to find it in the same place as other wood finishes at the home store, hardware store, lumber yard.

I know you didn't ask for a paper on the stuff, but it was kinda fun.
Brodie

[Old Coot]

Dan
You might want to try cutting your 1.5 pound cut one part shellac to 10 parts alcohol and dip the loaded bullets in that. I am afraid that 1.5 pound cut may stay on the bullet after it leaves the barrel. Brodie

[barrabruce]

should be interesting on the trails Dan
Thanks for all the info.
Though it was bugs wings or somesuch now I know.
B
Should prove an interesting thread for me anyway.

Hasn't stopped raining yet.

[303Guy]

Thanks, Brodie. That was fun. And interesting.

Thanks Dan. I'll be waiting for your results.

[barrabruce]

update
Not much to upgate as I took everything down the range except my scope
I did shoot a few off just yo see if I could hit something without any sights as all.
The plastic bottle wasn't even scared as I was about a foot and a half high at 35 yrds.may try a stock fix to get it more inline as if I had to shoot something instictavely I'm way off plus a more natural point will keep me from fighting a natual stance.

Anyway the patches came off and the the barrel looked clean enough.

I did have fun with me 22lr thou.

[barrabruce]

Hmmm didn't forget the scope today.
All testing went at 75 yrds and it was hot n humid and I couildn't have been bothered walking any further out,

best loads were loads with mid range burning powders kept to 25 to 30 k psi.
be around 1.5 " at 100yrds.
These were loaded with a bit of dacron ontop of powder followed by a cardboard wad and the a small ball of lube under the pp projo.

These were a slip fit into the unsized case and the final seating depth when chambered.

The patches seemed to come off clean and confettined except the base portion.
I found that there was a flattened ring showing the patch base folds.gascheck area and a lube groove or two.
They seemed to not cut deep enough for fragmentation.
The core is at least one thou maybe two thou over size so they can't be bumping up at all.
Maybe the core is getting swaged down a bit by the lube and patch,
Dunno
But they were loaded the other week and the patch sitting on the lube and the lubed bullet showed that the pva glue certainly kept the patch from getting soaked or soggy.

It has been hot and humid with a storms about so the conditions were perfect for testing.

Hope it aint to long and winded reply

Bruce

[Dan Cash]

Per our discussion regarding humidity creating soggy patches, I suggested that coating the patched bullet with shellac might render it resistant to moisture. A concern of all had to be that the shellac would bind the patch to the bullet and affect accuracy in a negative manner.

This test endeavors to answer the following two questions:

Will shellacking a paper patched bullet prevent moisture damaging the patch?
Will shellacking a paper patched bullet affect the accuracy of that bullet?

Having an iron sighted 1895 Winchester in .30-40 Krag that has a track record of fine shooting with paper patched bullets and already having a good load for that rifle, I proceeded with the test.

Attachment 127814Attachment 127813


The above groups were fired at 100 yards a couple years ago during the spring or early summer. What we think of as good is sometimes transient.


215 grain bullets from an Accurate mould were sized to .303 for cores. These were wet patched with two wraps, tails twisted, of Meade, Academie Tracing Paper, advertised as acid and lignin free. This paper is fairly uniform at .002 thick and is quite tough. The patched bullets measured .310 - .311 when dry. A patch with this paper is very durable and stays extremely tight. The patched bullets were allowed to dry for about 14 hours at normal room temperature.
The brass for this test was prepared in my standard fashion; neck sized, trimmed as needed, expanded with an “M” die, charged with a Dillon powder measure on a Dillon 550B press. Primers were Remington and the charge was 43 grains of Reloader 19.
Standard Patched Bullets are lubed with a home brew of equal parts, by weight, of bees wax, Neats foot oil and 1 oz. of lanolin per pound of mix. The lubricant is smeared on the bullet or the bullet is rolled on a lubricant loaded foam pad at the time of loading. The patch tails are trimmed as close as possible to the bullet base and the base is not lubricated.
Shellacked bullets were prepared for the test by dipping the entire bullet in a container of 1 ½ pound cut shellac (1 ½ pounds of dry shellac flakes dissolved in 1 gallon of alcohol). The bullets so treated were allowed to dry over night before loading and received a light coat of lubricant just prior to loading.

The third treatment of bullets was to load a Standard Patched Bullet in the cartridge case and then dip bullet and case neck in the 1 ½ pound cut shellac, letting the assembled cartridge dry over night. The shellac will stick to the greased patch and bullet.

[Dan Cash]

Attachment 127835
From left to right, Shellacked bullet, cartridge dipped in shellac, standard greased patch cartridge.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Here in western North Dakota, the climate is semi arid, particularly in winter. In an attempt to expose the ammunition to a high humidity environment was to spray them daily with a spray bottle of water so that all were visibly damp and then cover them with a coffee can. This was repeated daily for 5 days while I waited for the weather to clear.

Attachment 127836

Snow, 60 mile an hour wind and sub zero temperatures kind of held me up. None of the patches showed any sign of degradation but obviously, this is not Northern Australia during the summer.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
The day following the above picture was relatively calm with wind from the west at 15 to 20 miles per hour and the thermometer held at 7 below zero Fahrenheit. I figured I could stand it for 15 shots and had no idea when the weather might be better. I bundled up and had at it. The rifle in question lives in my truck so it was fully as cold as the air but the ammo was at 65 degrees F. The target was placed at 100 yards.

[Dan Cash]

Attachment 127845
(The above attachment is a picture of the target below with only the groups that are under target pasters. Fixing this is too hard to do.)

For a concept of scale, the black diamonds are 9 inches top to bottom and more or less 6 ½ inches on a side.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

The first five shots on the left most target were with the standard greased patch. Shot number one struck at the left edge of the target at 9:00. The rifle is zeroed for 200 yards and should have hit about 8 inches high but here it was at 9:00. I noted the strike and sent the rest of the five shot string down range with out checking the spotting scope again. It was cold out there. At the end of this string I observed the target with dismay as the five shots were distributed vertically in a 10 inch string. What the heck? I attributed this to a cold barrel and decided to shoot the rest of the test while in the mood and the wind was down.

The second 5 shot string fired on the center target used the fully shellacked bullets. The first shot struck left of point of aim as expected due to a stiff cross wind but subsequent shots were made at a moving target. The mirage coming off that rifle barrel was incredible.
The third 5 shot string, fired at the right hand target was with the dipped loaded cartridge. This target was a moving target, dancing and bobbing in the mirage from the now warm barrel.

These results were amazing and embarrassing to say the least. Could the cold air be to blame? Since there was more ammo of the same lot, I dipped 5 more rounds in the shellac and let them dry. The weather soon cleared and warmed up to a pleasant 20 degrees above zero but the wind persisted at close to 20 MPH from 3:00.


Again, the standard bullets were fired at the left most target. The gun and ammo were at room temperature about 65 degrees F. The reason for the vertical component of the group is unclear. It is either the gun warming up or some un noticed mirage. The shellacked ammunition was fired at the extreme right hand target. The point of impact is about 8 inches above aim as is consistent with this gun and load zeroed at 200 yards but fired at 100.

In conclusion, dipping patched bullets or loaded ammo in relatively thick shellac does not seem to affect accuracy and does have potential for protecting paper patched bullets from moisture. It also seems to provide some protection against abrasion for ammo carried in bandoleers or coat pockets when hunting. I could detect no obvious residue in the bore after firing but that aspect of this procedure would require more extensive shooting.

[barrabruce]

Thanks Dan.
Can't see some of the pics for some reason.

I'm drooling over that gun you got there.
Thanks for all the effort you have put in and especially braving the cold.

Parts of my anatomy are cringing just looking at the photo of the snow.

can't see the bullets but can the results thou.
Interesting indeed.

Got to ponder of this a bit more.
Thanks
Bruce

[Dan Cash]

Cartridges used in above test.
Left to right, Bullet dipped in shellac, cartridge dipped to neck in shellac, standard greased patch cartridge,

I regret the chopped up posting. Getting this up was akin to handling a 12 foot plank by the first six inches only.

[303Guy]

I'm drooling over that gun you got there.
Thanks for all the effort you have put in and especially braving the cold.

Likewise on both counts. What a beautiful rifle and what a perfect paper patched cartridge! I must remember to look for shellac next time I go to the shops.

[barrabruce]

gee better post a pic
Attachment 128014
75 yrd test.
21. 2206 has got potential and bm2 powder load I pulled out of my rrrr's seemed pretty good too.
But have none left.
No patch rings from my short stock cases were detected.
each group shot with clean bore.
The 2 loner holes I dunno where they belong.
Dan I get groups like yours as well.
I get that verticle stringing usually after the shells have sat around for a whiIe... have concluded that the patch in the case neck gives up pushing and conforms to the inside neck of case.That said it should shoot even better but maybe they are getting blown up to throat diameter or cutting or some such after reaching the outside of the case.

I definately haven't nailed this pping thing yet thats for sure.

[Dan Cash]

.303 Guy and Barabruce,
Thankyou for your kind comment regarding my old 95. It is my favorite "heavy" rifle. Though I have bigger ones, this one is the one I trust for all creatures great and small.

Bara, I presume you are shooting a .303. Is your bullet getting seated below the case neck? I don't have any luck at all when that happens. Your groups look pretty respectable, especially if the bullet is getting deep seated.

I will experiment some more with the shellac and try to improve the high humidity.
Dan

[barrabruce]

Well the pva glue is holding up to the task so far with lube applied over the top of it.

If I can get a small amount of shellac I will try that too.
Attachment 128655
left is a 300136 and right 308466
The 300136 just engraves the nose section when wrapped and the bands wrap normal diameter.
With glue the front section came of with bigger confetti floating down from the nose than normal and shot @2" at 100 yrds
With out glue a big unfurled section could be seen wafting down and didn't shoot as good.

The 308466 cut back to over the nose .
Just seats in the neck base and dosen't shoot as well as normaly wrapped over the nose and deep seated.
They didn't shoot real well as the nose engraves and doesn't get sized down when shot.
Couldn't see any leading but I thought I'd try it anyway.

These are wrapped to fit in unsized cases which are a bit thinner neck than normal.
I was hoping for one hole groups as I can't make them any fatter and go in my chamber.
Looks like I may have to size my cases and/or wraps smaller and shove them more into the rifling if I want it to shoot any better.
Smaller diameter wraps I get to shove into the rifle a bit more which seem to work better for me it seems anyway.

So pva glue works well for me and the patches need cutting if I want them to come off the cores.
They seem to be holding up to the weather un seated and lubed thou which is a bonus.

May have to try some shellac next as they would seem to be worth the effort.
Barra

[barrabruce]

Made a few dummies up and left out in the rain for a few hrs.
It stopped raining and I forgot about them so I don't know if they dried out again or not.
The water wrapped ones didn;t fair as good as the pva glue ones with a rub of 50/50 bees wax and vasalene with a dash of lanolin in it.

The glue ones were dry and showed no apparent water logging thou they could have dried out in the heat and sun.
Packed up and went home after the target dripped off the stand.
no pics but they seemed to wobble down the range pretty good anyway.
It was a more of a testing day with different stuff and see how me gun would shoot.(fixed it up a bit)
Shooting with the same ability but still promissing great things to me here and there enough to keep going at it.

Barra

[303Guy]

Packed up and went home after the target dripped off the stand.

I've laminated targets for that very reason!

[Dan Cash]

About the 25th of Jan, I placed a set of unloaded, patched and shellacked bullets, a set of loaded rounds with patched shellacked bullets lubed prior to loading and a set of loaded rounds with patched lubricated bullets, in a wire mesh container fully exposed to the elements. Since that time we have had 55 degree F weather and -10 degree F weather with rain and snow. Things hav lain under snow for several days, experienced melt and freeze, soak and dry. The plan was to leave them until first of March then shoot them but as some fair weather presents itself next week I'll shoot then and report.

Bara, has my package arrived? It was mailed on the 30th of Jan.

[barrabruce]

I look forward to your testing.
Yes the package arrived today in the mail which I picked up on the way home.
Looks like I will have to chase up some good metho now.
Seems harder to get as time goes on.
The stuff I'm using for my stoves is not that crash hot and I feel that they have watered it down too much.

I could get methanol again...got 20 ltres of it once whooo...eeeee! that stuff burns clean but is poisonous and one must be cafefull how one plays with it and not contaminate your cooking pots etc.

Think I could find some 90 to 95% stuff still if I'm lucky thou if it matters for dipping bullets in.

Thankyou Dan for the pressie
I enjoyed reading written words in ink pen again.
Had to sit down and think for a bit as its been a while since I've read anything in running writing and those R's take be back to when I would get my knuckles wrapped for blotching my page or getting the angles wrong and size of this or that.

You have to clean out your inbox folder as it is full and one can't get a pm to you until you delete afew.
Apparently .........as far as I know.

Hopefully I'll be able to get a few done and tested before long.

Have a nieces wedding to go to soon and things are starting to ramp up a bit.
Bout a 4 weeks time and the Rosella's better be ready to make in to jam

Even had to have a hair cut .....may have to have my annual bath early....even if I need it or not!!!!

Barra

[Dan Cash]

You should find the alcohol you need at the hardware or paint store. Failing that, for this purpose, I believe that regular rubbing alcohol will work. Looking at a bottle in our medicine cabinet shows it to be 70%. I think it used to be 90% but it should still work for this purpose. If you are a bit timid about this process, Go to your local spirits purveyor and buy some 180 proof or 90% grain alcohol. You can mix the shellack with some of the liquid and get shellacked with the remainder.

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