Question on a Savage 99 Action

[Jedman]

. I just bought a 99E in 308 Win. I fired it 3 times with some handloads I had and all seemed OK. Later I was taking the fired brass and chambering it and when I cycled the lever the extractor slipped off the case and the case was stuck. I popped it out with an cleaning rod but it seemed like it took a bit of force to pop it out.
I tried it again and it did the same thing and I did notice it took a little extra pressure to close the action on brass that was fired in this gun. Now my questions.

I notice when the action is closed you can see a gap of about 1/16" between the breech bolt and the front of the frame and the extractor is pushed out to the right as if it is being held off the case rim while in battery. After the action is opened the extractor moves to the left as though it would engage the case rim.

To someone who knows these rifles or has a good working 99 to examine, Is this the way it should look with the gap when closed and the extractor pushed out away from the case rim ?

As I said when I fired the handloads they fired and extracted good so maybe the fired brass shouldn't rechamber easy due to some headspace and movement in the breechbolt when fired.

Thanks for any help on this. Jedman

[Artful]

Savages are not known for being real solid lockup as it locks up at the rear.

without getting my lazy self up to go pull it from the safe I did a quick googlage for pic



and they appear to have the gap you describe
- so my fired cases are never neck sized but full length sized for reliable operation - That said I don't remember ever trying to rechamber once fired brass - but then again I got the rifle (.358 wcf) over 30 years ago and don't remember as well as I used too.

[fatnhappy]

My 1956 .308 savage 99F is pretty new. The guy I bought it from never fired it in the 63 years he owned it so I would say it's mechanically sound. Yes, there is a 1/16" gap between the receiver and bolt block. The bolt block body is recessed so the bolt face in fact extends into the receiver. I believe this gap exists to vent gases in the event of case head separation.

Unlike your experience however, my extractor does not ride forward of the extractor groove forcing it outwards. The extractor rests nicely in the groove and doesn't change it's tension at all by bringing the breech into battery. It remains absolutely unchanged as soon as it slips over the rim.

It occurs to me that since I used factory new unfired brass and yours was fired, therein may lie the difference with your extractor. Given that it's a rear locking system and your brass wasn't resized, I feel it's not unreasonable that your rifle balked at removing the rechambered brass. I also feel a prudent man in your situation should section one of those fired cases and determine if your brass is stretched so far that it risks head separation. That level of stretch might explain why rechambering the brass places the extractor groove slightly rearward and the extractor now rides higher on the brass case. I would think it's worth investigating.

YMMV

[Jedman]

My extractor is pushed out to the right when the action is closed and chamber empty, the casing is not what is pushing it open. The pics that Artful posted #3 and #4 show that rifles extractor
is also push out, not flush when looking down the side of the bolt.
I will try firing a primed resized not loaded piece of brass in the gun and see if it has a protruding primer indicating excess headspace. All may be OK with this action as a lot of single shot actions balk at rechambering fired brass once extracted.

Jedman

[starmac]

When I was still in high school, I loaded all my ammo with a lee loader, which just necksized the brass. The brass I had was from factory ammo I bought. One of my buddys saved his brass for me, but after loading it, it would not chamber in my rifle. It worked fine in his, and mine would work in his also. I never ran into the problems you are experiencing, but I don't recall ever trying to chamber fired brass either.

[TXGunNut]

I'm a bit new to the 99's myself but what you have encountered is why I FL resize all levergun cases, with the 99 I also carefully measure the shoulder setback. A good aerosol or detail cleaning of the action may be a good idea as well.

[Good Cheer]

For .300 and for .308 in the 99, yeah, I just full length resize and check for length.
For cast reduced loads it might be better to size just enough where the action will still close?

Wanting a .338 Fed for cast but haven't talked myself into it.

[gnoahhh]

While I concentrate on early M1899's with rimmed cases, I have owned a few .300 and .250's, and never had to full length size any of them. Perhaps I'm lucky, but other 99 shooting compadres do the same. Of course, none of us shoot anything remotely near full pressure ammo which might have something to do with it.

The 99 action is a bit springy due to its rear lockup, but it is one heckuva strong action nonetheless. Because of that springiness, I prefer to neck size only as I feel it increases case life for not constantly working the brass. If I had one that was a little sticky, I would live with it for regular shooting, and full length size (or use virgin brass) for hunting loads.

As for the OP's problem, I would examine the extractor to make sure there isn't crud built up between it and the bolt, and make sure the hook hasn't been "doctored" along the line sometime, and that the spring is correct. Without seeing the gun it is nigh impossible to diagnose the issue.

[Geezer in NH]

IMHO the handloads are the problem. The 99 needs small base die for reloads in my experience.

Never base problems on a handload.

[dragon813gt]

IMHO the handloads are the problem. The 99 needs small base die for reloads in my experience.

Never base problems on a handload.

I've found that you need a small base die when initially forming brass in the case of LC 308 to 300 Savage. They don't come close to fitting a case gauge w/out the small base die. But after first forming the small base die is no longer needed. I know others have different experiences but this has been mine.

[Jedman]

After checking the headspace of the rifle and measuring the fired brass I don't believe I have a problem. I do want to know what a small base die does ? I have been hand loading over 40 years and have never needed one before. The " base " or head on a brass case is mostly solid except for the primer pocket and the flash hole and you cannot reduce the size of it with the power of a simple reloading press ? My fired brass out of this rifle measures .4705 at the largest diameter so that should not be a problem.

I do like these rifles and just bought a second one, this one is a 1899- A in 38-55, I don't have it yet but looking forward to hand loading for this one also and will start by slugging the bore as I have no idea what it might be as 38-55's can vary by a lot .

Jedman

[starmac]

Wow, congrats on that 38/55.

[dragon813gt]

A small base die does nothing to the case head. It sizes to SAAMI minimum. W/ 300 Savage this means it pushes the shoulder back more. Converted cases go from being tough to close the bolt to sliding right in. I haven't had to use a small base die for any other reason than initial forming. It I get a chance I will take a pic w/ a case gauge because I have ones that have and haven't been run through a small base die.

[starmac]

There used to be a gunsmith here that was also a respected commercial reloader for many years. I do not remember all the details for his reasoning, but he always used small base dies for the 300, something about full length would sometimes stretch the neck. I remember him saying something like if you heard a little screech it had stretched it.

[dragon813gt]

Took the best pictures I could w/ my iPhone. These are LC308 that have been converted to 300 Savage. The one on the left has been sized w/ a small base die and is right at minimum size. The one on the right was FL sized w/ Lee dies as far as possible. Hard to see but it's barely below max.



That tiny difference makes all the difference when loading rounds. The ones sized w/ the small base die are butter smooth and the bolt closes w/ no resistance. The ones sized w/ the standard FL die take force to close the bolt. Still possible but it's to much for my liking.

[Jedman]

Thanks, I see the benefit of a small base die now. Jedman

[fatnhappy]

I've found that you need a small base die when initially forming brass in the case of LC 308 to 300 Savage. They don't come close to fitting a case gauge w/out the small base die. But after first forming the small base die is no longer needed. I know others have different experiences but this has been mine.

Dare I ask, are you using a forming die or simply resizing in standard dies? I ask because your experience does not mirror mine. I'm sizing in a form and trim die first, then running them through a standard sizing die. I haven't had the least bit of trouble chambering reformed LC and commercial brass.

Mind you I'm only forming for a singular 99 in .300 savage.


good pictures in the last post BTW.

[M99SavNut]

I have owned, and loaded for quite a few 99s, including 99Es, and my experience is that the 99E action is itself "softer" than the other models. Never kept one around very long for that reason. I have also had one (not an E) that would not rechamber fired brass UNLESS the brass was oriented the same way going in that it was coming out - the Savage technician who replaced the breechbolt said it was "out of square" which wasn't usually considered a problem "because the rifles weren't intended to be fired with reloaded ammunition". But what they did fixed the problem - a l-o-n-g time ago.

I've replaced a couple of extractors (yes, they're available but require some fitting) when the extractor would slip over the case rim when the lever was opened. The leading edge of the extractor hook was chipped on both, apparently by overly vigorous pulling on the lever to free a stuck case (this was by the previous owner, perhaps the reason the gun was on the market). The extractor standing away from the case rim when the bolt is closed is normal for the 99 - it slides right back down as the bolt is opened. As was stated earlier, the perceived gap isn't a problem - it's a transition of sorts between the bolt body (squared) and the bolt nose (rounded) and guides/centers the bolt nose into the back of the receiver & barrel.

Savage 99s are neat and well-designed rifles, but expensive to manufacture in today's world. More's the pity.