What did I do wrong?

[wyrmzr]

I went out to the range the other day, firing my usual .40 S&W with HF Red PC.
The first two magazines were, as usual, just fine. My aim leaves something to be desired, but that's another story.
However, after those first two magazines, I began to have a LOT of failures to feed. A lot meaning, 3/4 would not fully feed.
Some fed mostly into the chamber, others just started into the chamber and stopped.
One thing I knew I had right off was "the bulge" which I usually associate with bullet not going in square.


Typically, however, this has not caused my rounds to fail to feed.
After trying to cycle a whole lot of my remaining rounds, I went home and started pulling them. Here's what 3 pulled bullets look like:

I CAN say that a few of them looked like the OAL may have been too much before I pulled them, but not all of them. I get the impression that maybe I just managed to press them in at a slight angle, and at first I was thinking some of them just had too much PC on them, but when I pulled the barrel out of the gun, they would enter the throat just fine (this is on my S&W M&P, btw).
Any ideas what I did to screw up about half my rounds? Suggestions on what to watch for on the next batch?
Thanks in advance, all.

[John Boy]

Look at the gouges on your bullet noses above the driving bands. You need a hard roll crimp crimp. I bet dollars to donuts, that id you run your index finger down the round from the nose ... you'll feel a ridge at the case mouth from lack of a hard crimp.
With this ridge, the bolt going into battery trying to chamber the next round is jamming the nose against the chamber mouth and in your case - failure to feed

[wyrmzr]

Hmmm... I thought I'd crimped all my rounds, but you may be correct. I could have mis-sorted a bunch of them and not put the crimp on.
I just melted most of the old bullets down, will start fresh. and make sure I watch my sorting.
Most of the people at the range were pretty impressed with the PC process; none of them had seen it in action before. But now I need to show them that the PC didn't cause my issue, which is, of course, pretty unlikely.

[Jupiter7]

Roll crimp in an autoloader that headspaces on case mouth, I think not. Are you seating and crimping at same time?

[freebullet]

Measure those pulled boolits below the jacked up part and get back 2 us.

[Bzcraig]

I'm with Jupiter, you do not roll crimp for auto loaders. But some more info would be helpful. What is the diameter of your PC'ed boolits? What is the diameter of your pulled boolits? Do your loaded rounds pass the 'plunk' test? Has this ever happened before? Where did the brass come from and how did you process it? If you have new brass, give that a try and compare results. After a few others have weighed in on this start trying to figure it out but only try one change at a time otherwise you'll make yourself crazy!

[11B-101ABN]

PM sent.

[fredj338]

Do you size bully's before or after coating? Are you using mixed brass with unsized bullets? A proper taper crimp is one step toward reliable ammo.

[kungfustyle]

I think fredj has it right. Size down the boolit then pc and size again if need be. Pull the bbl and load up a round, and drop the loaded round in to see if it sits in flush. I had a bugger of a time w/ a 45 auto till I got the taper crimp right. In other words I plop each auto round into the barrel to make sure that the rim sits flush. If one pokes out a bit crimp it down a bit more and it should plop right in.

[Love Life]

You know, I read of all these issues recently and most of them would have been eliminated with the proper use of proper measuring tools...and measuring.

The loading manuals and SAAMI website give you the correct dimensions of a loaded cartridge. If your loaded cartridge is not within those dimensions then you very well may have issues. Crimp to book spec or a little under, load to a consistent OAL that works in your gun and is usually within book spec, and enjoy some happiness. A common problem I see is people want to load as long as possible for some odd reason, and then have issues.

I also trim all my pistol brass (as a matter of fact I am in the process of trimming 3,000 9mm) so my taper crimp is consistent.

Here is a picture of a properly applied taper crimp on a 45 ACP and a plunk test. This load has chambered and fired in no less than 8 different autoloaders without being specifically tailored to those guns because it is within specs...

[bedbugbilly]

I'm just curious about your comment about the COAL being off on some of them from what you saw. You don't say how / what you are loading on but if your dies are set up properly, even though your casings may vary a few .001 in length, with the same boolet design, they should all be seating the same so that the COAL is the same. Are you doing a random check as you load?

I don't load .40 S & W but I'm thinking that you might also find a cartridge gauge handy as a means to double check the finished cartridges? I know every pistol chamber is different but if they slide into a cartridge gauge they would be to spec. I have a feeling that if you slid some of the ones that hung up on you into a gauge the base wouldn't be sitting flush with the top of the gauge.

I use a cartridge gauge on the calibers I do load and I have found them to tell me two important things - I only load cast and many are loaded "as cast". I have played around with it quite a bit and the first thing it will tell me is if the boolitis too big in diameter. (I use Lee dies and this is before I've put the cartridge through the FCD - just playing around with different loading scenarios). The second thing the gauge tells me is if my crimp is where it should be or not - particularly the taper crimp on my 9mm.

Everybody has their own "methods" but for me, I have found a cartridge gauge to be one of the handiest tools on the bench. I really think it would be helpful - especially if you are using cast and PC (which I have never used PC) but I have to believe that the PC is making the boolit fatter which is going to affect the "girth" of your cartridge neck when seated - thus affecting the headspace from the taper crimp isn't adjusted right on your die?

Good luck - you'll get it figured out and be back in business soon!

[mozeppa]

a few here are exactly right ....i had the same trouble with my 9mm.

the case/expander/belling tube in the powder dispenser was going into the case too far and was creating the bulge that you have thats half way down on your brass.

BUT in order to get an acceptable bell on the brass...it has to go into the brass that far!....or does it?

i took it out of the powder dispenser and put it in a lathe and cut off 1/10 of an inch...(.100) rounded the cut edge and put it back in.
results = no more middle bulge...but the bell was perfect ... but there was still at least 1/4" left on the expander to do its job as well."( should be .4005 dia.)

next....there are quite a few who load their boolits as they come from the mold...without sizing them....this can cause problems from too large a boolit.
as the boolit is seated the large boolit expands the case mouth even further.

enough so that when you've set up your crimp die, you are crimping onto a oversize boolit.............which is still too big! ...but the crimp looks good!...(still its too big!)
if the completed round is on the long side of your target "over-all-length"...then the boolit touches the bore before the case mouth can touch the chamber area where its supposed to touch.

if thats not enough to confuse you ...
that oversize boolit was pressed into the too small of an opening in the case,........ (which was made too big for the chamber via the die used to expand and bell.) ..............pressing in the oversize boolit FURTHER expands the case in the middle (your bulge) making it hang in the chamber and now you are not going into full battery. (locked slide , ready to fire.)

long story short ...
check to see if your expander/belling die may be to long for the depth of boolit penetration you need for seating...shorten only if necessary.
check its diameter, should be .4005
size your brass ...(even new brass)
size all cast boolits before loading them....after powder coating them.

hope i didn't confuse ya!

[ffries61]

a few here are exactly right ....i had the same trouble with my 9mm.

the case/expander/belling tube in the powder dispenser was going into the case too far and was creating the bulge that you have thats half way down on your brass.

BUT in order to get an acceptable bell on the brass...it has to go into the brass that far!....or does it?

i took it out of the powder dispenser and put it in a lathe and cut off 1/10 of an inch...(.100) rounded the cut edge and put it back in.
results = no more middle bulge...but the bell was perfect ... but there was still at least 1/4" left on the expander to do its job as well."( should be .4005 dia.)

next....there are quite a few who load their boolits as they come from the mold...without sizing them....this can cause problems from too large a boolit.
as the boolit is seated the large boolit expands the case mouth even further.

enough so that when you've set up your crimp die, you are crimping onto a oversize boolit.............which is still too big! ...but the crimp looks good!...(still its too big!)
if the completed round is on the long side of your target "over-all-length"...then the boolit touches the bore before the case mouth can touch the chamber area where its supposed to touch.

if thats not enough to confuse you ...
that oversize boolit was pressed into the too small of an opening in the case,........ (which was made too big for the chamber via the die used to expand and bell.) ..............pressing in the oversize boolit FURTHER expands the case in the middle (your bulge) making it hang in the chamber and now you are not going into full battery. (locked slide , ready to fire.)

long story short ...
check to see if your expander/belling die may be to long for the depth of boolit penetration you need for seating...shorten only if necessary.
check its diameter, should be .4005
size your brass ...(even new brass)
size all cast boolits before loading them....after powder coating them.

hope i didn't confuse ya!

sorry, but some misinformation here, the bullet size + the brass wall thickness = the diameter the finished round, the bulge is caused by the bullet, which is necessary, this is the neck tension that holds the bullet in place on these type rounds (not crimp), if the bulge from the expander ball/bell mouth is bigger than that, you'll have no neck tension, which is a whole other problem.

Fred

PS,just to be fair some of this info is right on, IMHO

[mozeppa]

i understand that there must be tension...maybe enough to cause a bulge to some degree .

but what i was referring to was the EXTRA bulge that is created beyond what should be there by an oversized boolit.

[popper]

Plunk test on ALL for my 40 & 9. Same mag for all shots? It's hitting in the bore. Are they sized right - measured before loading? You could seat deeper but the M&P has a sharp edge that will cut PC. That the Lee 180 mould with the front drive band step won't let you have too much on the nose Taper crimp for 40. Pliers marks on the nose, not bore hits.

[rsrocket1]

My guess is that you coated these boolits without sizing them after the coat. My 401-175-TC boolits drop at .4025 and after a thin powder coat, often measure at .405". That caused all sorts of feed/chambering problems in my ultra narrow throat and chambered M&P40.

If that happens with your booilts (and it looks like you have a pretty healthy coat of HF red on them), the only way you'll make them work in your gun (without sizing) would be to seat them so that none of the vertical part of the drive band sits above the case. You'll have to reduce your charge if you are near max to makeup for the reduced case volume. Then see if the round passes the plunk test. If it doesn't, you'll have to use the Lee FCD to iron out the bulge. The problem with that is the PC boolits have so little friction you will have to check whether you can push the bullet in any more by leaning into it with the bullet pressed against a table. If it doesn't push in any more, you are safe. If it does push in, you are in danger of setback and a kaboom.

In any case, if the root cause of the problem here is too fat bullets, the solution is to size them properly for your gun.

[44man]

Friend was out with his new .45 and had the same problems. Bought boolits, not sized right. Front band of the boolit would not enter the throat. Bad "Plunk test." I told him to run all boolits through a size die.
We shot single shot since the slide would chamber without having to strip a round out of the mag.

[Moonie]

Friend was out with his new .45 and had the same problems. Bought boolits, not sized right. Front band of the boolit would not enter the throat. Bad "Plunk test." I told him to run all boolits through a size die.
We shot single shot since the slide would chamber without having to strip a round out of the mag.

I do hope that wasn't a 1911, not good for the extractor to have to snap over a rim like that.

[wyrmzr]

My guess is that you coated these boolits without sizing them after the coat. My 401-175-TC boolits drop at .4025 and after a thin powder coat, often measure at .405". That caused all sorts of feed/chambering problems in my ultra narrow throat and chambered M&P40.

If that happens with your booilts (and it looks like you have a pretty healthy coat of HF red on them), the only way you'll make them work in your gun (without sizing) would be to seat them so that none of the vertical part of the drive band sits above the case. You'll have to reduce your charge if you are near max to makeup for the reduced case volume. Then see if the round passes the plunk test. If it doesn't, you'll have to use the Lee FCD to iron out the bulge. The problem with that is the PC boolits have so little friction you will have to check whether you can push the bullet in any more by leaning into it with the bullet pressed against a table. If it doesn't push in any more, you are safe. If it does push in, you are in danger of setback and a kaboom.

In any case, if the root cause of the problem here is too fat bullets, the solution is to size them properly for your gun.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
I PC'd my first few hundred .40 bullets in high humidity, shake and bake method. The last batch was done more recently, and I didn't take into consideration the fact that the humidity went from the 70% range down into the teens between the batches. Apparently, a very large variation in humidity gave me a very large variation in my PC thickness.
Last week I went back out to the range with one batch of PC'd bullets and one batch with traditional lube. More than half the PC'd bullets failed to feed, but only one with ALOX failed to feed.
So, I need to get a sizer for the .40. It's much nicer not having that smoke that goes along with the traditional lube.

[leadman]

Make sure you do the plunk test even after you have sized your boolits. I've run into problems with several friends autos with no leade ahead of the chamber and the boolit were hitting the rifling even at manual oal. Don't know why this is happening except the manufacturers are rushed maybe?