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Thread: Smokeless in a BP rifle = Big Kaboom

  1. #21
    Boolit Master zuke's Avatar
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    And I bet he's reproduced

  2. #22
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    I had a modern custom inline muzzle loader built for my son that recommends smokeless powder but I wont let him use it, that is smokeleass powder. it shoots great with the 209 powder and I would have no peace if I let him use smokelss. why risk it as I consider it a risk. some guys are headed for a brick wall with no breaks at 150 miles and hour and for some it takes years to get to that wall. some guys cant rest untill they are layed to rest.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Probably had a cousin who told him, "he had a friend who had an uncle who did it all the time in his muzzleloader!!!"
    Maker of Silver Boolits for Werewolf hunting

  4. #24
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    what about the black powder equivalent load of 30% by weight of 4198? would that be safe?

    not that im interested in trying it, and obviously the blowups aren't using equivalent loads.

    just asking?
    ____________
    "...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by cpileri View Post
    what about the black powder equivalent load of 30% by weight of 4198? would that be safe?

    not that im interested in trying it, and obviously the blowups aren't using equivalent loads.

    just asking?
    What is the apple equivalency when making oranges? There is NO equivalency when comparing BP to smokeless powder. That's the point that lefty made!
    Aim small, miss small!

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    the way I see it.... using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader is like catching a live grenade with pin removed and putting it in your shirt pocket. NO GOOD OUTCOME CAN BE HAD.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Yep, I think it's been the point of all the 24+ replies since the pic of the kaboomed Knight? inline was posted. Actually that pic reminds me of several of the kaboomed "so-called" smokeless muzzleloaders I've seen.

    Since all smokeless powders, by weight, carry very similar (and LARGE) amounts of stored chemical energy (some burn faster and some burn slower, but that stored chemical energy is similar) …. it seems obvious to me why they are not for any muzzleloader and show zero tolerance for miscalculation. Example: a load of 7 gr Bullseye in a 357 handgun releases a lot of poop. Increase that to a similarly measly 12-14 gr and see what happens!! (don't even think about doing it as it will likely result in a big kaboom- have witnessed it a couple of times with double charges of BE in the 357).

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Stupid is as stupid does!
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  9. #29
    In Remembrance

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    there seems to be some science behind the idea of equivalency:
    http://www.levergunscommunity.com/vi...=27410#p339567

    FWIW
    C-
    Last edited by cpileri; 12-13-2014 at 08:16 PM.
    ____________
    "...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Well yah. It is the "science" that clearly suggests it's not a good idea… but more like the idea of non-equivalency.

    I screen shot one of the graphs from that forum that is most instructive. Using the shotgun data indicated on the graph, add maybe 4 gr of the smokeless and risk kabooming the shotgun. Add 15 gr of blackpowder to the BP load and it would be hard to tell the difference. Adding a bunch more of the BP will likely only yield an increase in recoil, noise, smoke and a poorer pattern.

  11. #31
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    shooters, you want to avoid the people who always say, ya but. ya butters never learn, never listen and are a danger to them selves and every one around them. they are short wired in their brain, just stay out of their way so when they hit the wall your not their with them.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    got that right. I dont want to be within grenade distance of them

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Folks keep forgetting the basic rules of gunpowder chemistry.

    Black powder has a burn rate controlled by grain size. Pressure has very little to do with the burn rate, so it is predictable.

    Smokeless powder is not controlled by grain size, it burns based on the retardant coating and available pressure. More pressure makes it burn faster, which generates even more pressure, and this keeps accelerating until either you run out of powder, or the container vents, by way of the bullet exiting the barrel or the barrel rupturing.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master


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    Lucky man to live.

    Blame it on Savage IMHO who made the Smokeless ML Note they don's any more.

    STUPID STUPID STUPID.

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    They posted that pic over on Accurate Shooter's daily bulletin. Said the shooter lost two fingers when that happened.

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  16. #36
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer in NH View Post
    Lucky man to live.

    Blame it on Savage IMHO who made the Smokeless ML Note they don's any more.

    STUPID STUPID STUPID.
    Ignorance can be educated, there is no fix for Stupid.

    There are still several custom makers of smokeless muzzle loaders out there. They are not Stupid, they work great.

    Henry Ball designed the guns Savage built and sold under licence. I believe Bill Ball will still gladly build you one.

    My first smokeless build utilized a Rem #5 RB action.

    Smokeless powder is the original BP substitute, period.

    Ken
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by koehlerrk View Post
    Folks keep forgetting the basic rules of gunpowder chemistry.

    Black powder has a burn rate controlled by grain size. Pressure has very little to do with the burn rate, so it is predictable.

    Smokeless powder is not controlled by grain size, it burns based on the retardant coating and available pressure. More pressure makes it burn faster, which generates even more pressure, and this keeps accelerating until either you run out of powder, or the container vents, by way of the bullet exiting the barrel or the barrel rupturing.
    "Smokeless powder is not controlled by grain size" This is not accurate, use the IMR powders as an example and compare the fast IMR stick powders to the slow IMR stick powders and you will clearly see the fast ones have very small grains and the slow ones have much larger grains.

    Tim
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  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer in NH View Post
    Lucky man to live.

    Blame it on Savage IMHO who made the Smokeless ML Note they don's any more.

    STUPID STUPID STUPID.
    Savage didn't have anything to do with this. A very stupid person put smokeless powder into a muzzle loading rifle not designed to use smokeless powder. The gun that blew up wasn't a Savage. Not only was he ignorant for doing it, other people don't seem to understand the real cause and blame it on something that had nothing to do with it. Savage got out of the smokeless muzzle loading business due to sales figures that dropped off due to market saturation. Let's blame it on the real cause, the person who loaded the gun incorrectly. Too many "experts" out there that don't have a clue what they're doing.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Yep, while burn rate, coatings, granule surface size, chemical composition, etc. influences how the burn proceeds- I think the big difference between BP and smokeless is the amount of stored (potential) chemical energy in each type.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwbolts View Post
    Ignorance can be educated, there is no fix for Stupid.

    There are still several custom makers of smokeless muzzle loaders out there. They are not Stupid, they work great.
    Ken's statement is the best in this thread...

    I can't believe some of the 'generic' statements in this thread, along the line of "never put smokeless in a black powder gun'.... People on this forum do it all the time!!! I have a Trapdoor (designed for black powder) and I have no trouble finding published, smokeless loads for that black powder rifle. And it's not just about muzzleloaders... it's about following the #1 rule of reloading: Don't overpressure the barrel....

    Don't get me wrong, the guy who did this made a stoopid mistake... But it wasn't just using smokeless powder; it was using the wrong smokeless powder, and way too much of it.... I read the statement from the responding officer.

    “The man who fired the gun loaded the muzzleloader with smokeless powder which had been taken from 20 gauge shotgun shells,” Doane said over the phone. “He had run out of black powder and had actually cut open the shells and ended up pouring 75 grains of powder into that muzzleloader. Once again, smokeless powder is several times more powerful than black powder, so it would be like putting a 300-grain charge of blackpowder into a muzzleloader.”
    http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2014/12/16/muzzleloader-explodes-like-grenade-takes-shooters-fingers/

    He cut open some shotgun rounds and used that powder... 75 grains of it!!! I wouldn't want to be around a Rem 700, Savage Axis or any other modern rifle that had roughly 75 grains of any shotgun powder crammed into a cartridge....

    This was not just about using smokeless in a BP gun... This was about being stoopid...
    Last edited by StratsMan; 12-20-2014 at 12:47 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check