POSITION SENSITIVE POWDERS for pistols.

[geargnasher]

Don't know about position but 296, LilGun and H-110 you can't do light charges as it either fizzles or detonates, I would assume from it not filling the case and lighting off along the length of the charge in the case. I do do light charges but use a buffer to keep the powder packed against the primer hole and no problems with my loads. Position is not a issue if there is no air space in the case and you use a filler to obtain 95-100% fill

Well yeah, if the powder doesn't change position due to density or filler, then the position is consistent and the burning characteristics won't change.

I've seen a lot of variations using 2400 and Unique in both '06 and .30-30, enough so that for my .30-30 "turtle loads" that mostly will be fired at a declination but have to sustain being shuffled-'n'shucked from the magazine justify using a "powder locator" such as a 3/4 grain tuft of Dacron fluffed and lofted to fill the airspace between powder and bullet and put a slight spring tension on the powder charge to hold it in place.

Gear

[mozeppa]

so...do you have to adjust your powder loads to compensate for the dacron tuft?

how much dacron?

[geargnasher]

so...do you have to adjust your powder loads to compensate for the dacron tuft?

how much dacron?

Instructions: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...use-of-fillers

Gear

[35remington]

William, keep testing with more cartridges. I doubt your final results will differ from mine

[williamwaco]

OK.
I tabulated my results put the tables on the web.

Anyone who is interested can see my powder position sensitivity tests for Unique and A-2015 here:


http://reloadingtips.com/pages/powder-position.htm

[35remington]

Since this about pistol powders, try a number of those under the conditions I've described and get back to me.

Reduced charges of rifle powders like the 4895's can be very position sensitive, but then the bell tolls for most powders given noticeable room to move.

More testing will change your "position" on the issue quite dramatically. That's "will", not "might."

[Eutectic]

35remington is correct on this.

Chronographing first with muzzle vertically down 90° towards the ground then lifted slowly up to fire...... Follow with the muzzle vertically up 90° towards the sky then lowered slowly to fire will tell you the 'real story'! Actually shooting through the chronograph screens either vertical up or vertical down should give one the most variation if one wanted to go to the trouble to setup the chronograph (safely).!! I've never found a powder that didn't change some doing this. A few may be a little better than others??

I agree about Universal! I have had more velocity variation in handguns with it than any other... Shotguns weren't particularly stellar E.S. with it for that matter.

Being uniform with a handgun in regards to consistent powder position is very difficult even at the range. Field or defense use will define the powder position for you.

By design the shotgun passes these tests because of wadding holding powder from movement. For rifles and handguns only the bullet base against the powder or using granulated buffer (both in a safe load of course) will eliminate powder position sensitivity.

Even dacron in a fluffy turf cannot be counted on 100%. Fine granulated powders can 'migrate' into the turf causing extreme spread to widen in a measurable amount!

Eutectic

[Char-Gar]

For generations people have been shooting high scores and winning matches with Bulleye powder in the 38 Special and 45 ACP. Some of you testing types have allowed it to separate you from reality. "Much ado about nothing"

[swheeler]

For generations people have been shooting high scores and winning matches with Bulleye powder in the 38 Special and 45 ACP. Some of you testing types have allowed it to separate you from reality. "Much ado about nothing"

Charger there you go using common sense and reality, now what is everyone going to post about.

[Char-Gar]

Charger there you go using common sense and reality, now what is everyone going to post about.

My concern is for the army of lurkers and newbies who might actually think there is real world substance to all this theory and tech talk.

[Motor]

Hmmm, What about my 6gr Bullseye load in 7.62x54R. In such a large case with no filler it must have a huge velocity swing do to powder position. Funny I never noticed.

We do point the rifles up to set the powder back before shooting but this has to be a fairly extreme example and still there seems to be little effect. Yes this is one powder, and one load, and probably one of the less sensitive powders.

[Eutectic]

My concern is for the army of lurkers and newbies who might actually think there is real world substance to all this theory and tech talk.

Char-Gar, you are an ol' timer in the world of cast boolits! But you are not the only one here.....
I started as an cast boolit inspector for my father in the 40's shortly after WW2. I learned later my young eyes were to his benefit. In 1950 I got a Trapdoor Springfield .45-70 and Dad made me cast my own for it.

But you may want to re-think your comments. While I agree that your comment below is very likely true; you don't have the data. It therefore becomes opinion.
"For generations people have been shooting high scores and winning matches with Bulleye powder in the 38 Special and 45 ACP."

It was not a question in the original poster's words as to the "affect" of powder position sensitivity to winning matches: only what it was; did it exist; and did powders vary or some not show position problems.

So you drifted the thread Char-Gar......

A couple of us actually gave some TESTED results as to what happens...... It was a technical question which requires a technical answer!

So I ask in lieu of your quote at the start.....

Is it better that this "army of lurkers and newbies" hear actual test results or your opinion??

Eutectic

[claude]

But first, you gotta know it's happening.

Then just deal with it accordingly, if you're out knocking smoke off rocks at the local "cut bank range" and you miss one................blame it on poor powder position.

[MT Gianni]

If i had a pistol load that was accurate but position sensitive enough to cause me concern, I would try 4-5 different brands of primers with the same load.

[35remington]

Motor, first you say that there must be a huge velocity swing in your load due to charge positioning that you never noticed, then you say you position the charge before you shoot and there is little effect! Gee, if the charge is positioned, didn't everyone here say there would be little positioning effect?

You might want to reread what you posted. It doesn't make any sense in terms of information.

Since the OP was about the effect of positioning the charge, the question has been answered. The practical effect, as stated, depends upon your powder choices and how you handle the gun. Stay away from sensitive powders, handle the gun repeatably and it may have little practical effect. That was also stated.

But you gotta know the effect before you can do something about it or decide if it's worthwhile to address. Also was stated. If the gun is tipped from front to back, and it happens more often than may be realized, the results with poor selection of powders may be less than hoped for. May be. Try and see.

swheeler, that is common sense and reality. The final component is to test for results under all the possible conditions under which you handle the gun, and powder position sensitivity may be an important component of that. That's as common sensical as you can get.

claude, that which you suggest is not part of good load choice methodology. If you wanna select loads based on that, fine, but I won't. I select powder choices based on known issues, not guessed at ones. And I did say if you know it's happening, you can deal with it. If you don't, you can't.

And I don't recall disparaging what match shooters do with Bullseye powder. Just commenting on the powders that show considerable position sensitivity. As the OP requested.

Again.....sometimes it matters. Find out if it does by checking for position sensitivity. Again....if you know it happens, you can avoid it.

[claude]

And I did say if you know it's happening, you can deal with it. If you don't, you can't.

You certainly did, which is why I quoted you. The rest was humor.

[Motor]

I only started to shift the powder charge after we started to compete with each other. This was well after load development which was done on a shooting rest.

The load shoots 1074 f/s and groups were acceptable at 50 yards.

Just how much powder shift can you have with 6gr in a case that size? Even if pointed vetical before chambering when lowered to level or slightly below level what do you have?

The point is it would not take much of a percentage change of 1074 to make a noticable difference and after nearly 1000 rounds fired we have never noticed any.

Also to note is I have loaded these with large pistol primers (2 brands) as well as large rifle primers. Still no ill effect.

This is without a doudt because I'm using Bullseye.

[35remington]

The point is you're still giving little in the way of information. What was the velocity with powder forward and rearward if there was "a huge velocity swing you never noticed"? If you never noticed it, apparently you didn't chronograph it either.....wouldn't noticeable chronographed results be noteworthy? If there was little difference (claimed despite not being chronographed) why did you decide to tip the barrel up before each shot when you were competing? Sounds like there was some positioning effect you wanted to eliminate or you would not have done it. Therefore your claims seem rather contradictory.

"Even if pointed vetical before chambering when lowered to level or slightly below level what do you have?"

Umm.....a positioned charge with the powder in the back of the case. What's your point here?

How much powder shift can you have with 6 grains in a case that size? Why ask the question why you and I both know it's quite a lot? A round slammed home with considerable force can throw the powder to the front of the case. A round gently loaded can have nearly all of it the back, or laying along the side of the case. A round tipped up will have it all in the back. Seems like a strange question to ask to me. I'm still not getting your point.

"The point is it would not take much of a percentage change of 1074 to make a noticable difference and after nearly 1000 rounds fired we have never noticed any."

If that was the point....why do you still tip the rifle up before each shot when competing? I'm still trying to resolve the contradiction in your statements. I don't think you've helped me much.

Care to try again?

[Motor]

I tip the barrel just for the hell of it.

6gr off Bullseye laying in the bottom of a horizontal 54R case does not even come up to the flash hole.

Simple handling of the rifle could move the charge around which I'm sure it has. Still never had any ill effect.

The point is if it was going to make a difference it would surly be magnified in this situation.

[35remington]

"I tip the barrel just for the hell of it."

According to your results.....time to quit doing that.

If the charge is positioned before the shot, the powder may very well cover the flash hole.

At fifty yards a 100 fps variation makes relatively little difference in vertical point of impact given the load is already going 1074 fps for an average, especially if the load groups "acceptably" whatever that is. Other ranges may yield different results, but a 1074 fps load is little more than a 75-100 yard load at best anyway.

"The point is if it was going to make a difference it would surly be magnified in this situation." Appears so, but......

Variations in the handling of the rifle when another person is handling it might result in more velocity variation than you've experienced. The only way to know if it's surely gonna be magnified.....is to be SURE you've magnified it.....not to guess. That's always been my point.

To know what the effect of extremes in powder positioning do, position it in extreme positions in the case and fire it....and a chronograph will shed considerable light on the issue if you have one, as shooting at close pistol ranges won't help much and nothing at all can be determined from point of impact variation. Then you'll know. That's been my point all along. To do otherwise is not to know.