Lube on paper & sizing after patch

[LeRoy.Beans]

I would like to start paper patching for a Krag. I've done a lot of this with black powder in larger cartridges, but never in something like this.

After reading the stickies, I am surprised to see that most here size before patching rather than after. And every one seems to be using lube on the paper.

Are the differences due to the smaller diameters, harder lead, or faster velocities?

Have any here tried sizing after patching on skipping the lube?

[Dan Cash]

LeRoy, I have been patching for .30-30 and .30-40 for about 3 years. Regarding sizing, the opinion field is somewhat split. I had to size after patching at first as my setup did not allow a finished bullet of the proper diameter. One of the old maasters told me to not size the patched bullet as the bullet would be distorted. I checked some bullets that I had sized after patching and the guy was right. A rib of lead extruded into the gap between the ends of the patch making the bullet a couple thousandths out of round.

I got with the program and ordered some push through sizers from Buckshot (on this forum) and sized my cores then patched to the desired diameter and met nirvana. I achieve factory or better velocity in a bullet weight with accuracy better than most jacketed loads. I DO NOT size after patching.

The jury is still out on lubing the patch. I have shot them both lubed and dry but do not have enough samples to comment on accuracy differences if any. Lubrication does help loading the bullet into the case. As my ammo is all field ammo as opposed to bench or target ammo, I require suitable neck tension to hold the bullet. Too, some of my ammo is carried in cartridge loops on a gun belt and may ride around for a good while before being used. Lubricating the paper seems to toughen the paper and protects against moisture if exposed to the elements though I try to keep coat tails over the cartridge belt.

Hope this helps and have fun. I don't shoot any jacketed any more in any cartridge over .30. It is all cast and mostly patched.
Dan

[Anonym]

Not to hijack your thread, but with regards to lubing paper, do you lube the base as well, or just the sides to assist in sizing and loading?

[LeRoy.Beans]

If I want to use a 311284 bullet for a .30 krag, I will need to size it down a whole bunch (as cast, they are 0.314). But when I patch it, would it be best to patch it up on the nose (0.301" from this mold), or should it only be wrapped as far forward as the beginning of the first driving band? Paper will add about 0.008" to the bullet diameter for 2 wraps. In other words, using paper to replace the diameter that is lost via sizing?

Should I plan on using gas checks on or off for this type of cartridge? (I'm not sure i can size down the checks that small anyway, so this might be moot.)

[Dan Cash]

Anonym, I lube the sides only. I have used bee wax, neats foot oil lanolin mix, lanolin alone, neats foot and canola oils alone and vasaline. It all works.

LeRoy, I use that bullet and a round nose flat point from Accurate that are intended to be used as grease groove bullets. I squirt some liquid case lube ( lanolin base) on the castings and put them through a .303 push through die, nose first of course. I patch with tracing paper that runs .002. End product is about .312. The paper comes from Wall Mart or my local drug store and is Meade, listed as "medium weight," Darci Studio 71, listed as 25lb, Pacon, listed as Standard Weight (40g sq Meter. There are many others but those should get you onto a suitable weight paper. Results are dandy.

These groups were shot at 100 yards from my 1895 Win. in .30-40. We have lots of gusty wind here in North Dakota and it was running pretty good across my line of fire when I shot these two.
Attachment 124189

[Dan Cash]

LeRoy.Beans;3042884]If I want to use a 311284 bullet for a .30 krag, I will need to size it down a whole bunch (as cast, they are 0.314). But when I patch it, would it be best to patch it up on the nose (0.301" from this mold), or should it only be wrapped as far forward as the beginning of the first driving band? Paper will add about 0.008" to the bullet diameter for 2 wraps. In other words, using paper to replace the diameter that is lost via sizing? I would surely patch over the ogive or far enough forward that rifling will not engage lead. How far will vary with your throat and seating depth. I have had no problem squeezing my bullet from .312-.314 down to .303. The grooves will not be used to hold grease.

Should I plan on using gas checks on or off for this type of cartridge? (I'm not sure i can size down the checks that small anyway, so this might be moot.) If your bullet has the check on it before you size it for patching, the check will size just fine. Although all the bullets I use for patching are gascheck types, I do not use a check. It is extra work and does not seem to provide any benefit. I twist my patch tail and the check shank makes the twist easier to do and the patch seems to adequately protect the base and obdurate the base of the bullet. Use a slow powder; for the .30-40 I am using R19 in sufficient quantity to drive my 115-120 grain bullet 2250-2350 fps over the chronograph.

[Old Coot]

Leroy, Beans;
If your rifling engraves the nose of the 311284 bullet size to that diameter (I believe you said .301). If the bore rider nose of the bullet is not engraved (when loaded as a plain cast bullet) you will need to size to a larger diameter perhaps .303 or so, and patch to the ogive of the bullet. The rifling will cut the paper and the patch will leave when you shoot. You do not need to gas check the bullet before or after patching. The paper will protect the lead quite handily. The easiest route to accuracy is to patch the bullet to a size that will just seat in a fired UNSIZED case mouth. This fills the throat and alligns the bullet with the bore the best. I lube my patches because they create less heat going down the barrel, and lubing the patch seems to add a layer of protection. Brodie

[Anonym]

Thanks Dan. I was wondering about that.

[Dan Cash]

In above post, 115-120 grain should read 215-220 grain. Fingers not what they used to be on the keyboard.

[edwin41]

i for one size after patching , through a lyman lubrizer , with a mix of 50/50 beeswax - vaseline.
the bullets are evenly coated , but thats not the main advantage.
the main advantage of doing this final sizing is that the patches become really thight , like ironed on the bullet.
you will have to take them of with a knife or so , they are that thight.