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Thread: The FBI Returning to 9mm Ammo

  1. #41
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldsagerat View Post
    My father was a Marine and later a sheriff's deputy. He carried
    a 45 in the Pacific and killed plenty with it. He had to carry
    a revolver as a deputy but carried the 45 as "backup". They should
    keep improving ammo, but none of it is much good unless you can
    hit your target under stress and know where to shoot them. Most cops shoot a lot of rounds mainly because they are justifiably scared. Most cops I know do NOT practice much with their weapons and don't do recreational shooting. A lot of them don't
    like guns at all, but have to carry them. Its a no-win situation.
    Sad.
    Not to sure what's so sad about that. "COPS" or law enforcement officers. Are with any luck devoted to helping people. Not punching bullet holes into them. Most of them IMHO are. Well at least over 50% maybe. So when we get a deal like Ferguson MO where a cop with a fine record has to shoot a man in self defense. Should we just say he is a killer because he could not hand to hand defeat the man in combat. Had to use his evil gun to stay alive. I have two things to offer up here. First is. I'll guarantee everyone here that in spite of my old ma feeble appearance. I could of taken that pitiful fat *** in Ferguson down in a heart beat. A wood pencil would of come in handy but I've taken out better with less. Next thing is not to many of you would want me being your local constable. What I'd be good at is choosing who would be a good LEO.

    As for the 9mm round. Anyone who thinks it matters is inexperienced. 45's are by far better at blowing rattle snakes apart as are 44's. So what. Personally I've settled out on 38 Special revolvers. To old to bend over to pick up brass. That is a valid factor by the way. Then the 177 grain 358429 at 900 fps is a formidable piece of whoop ***. I've a six shot Colt Police Positive stuck in my pants pocket right now as I sit in my home. Sine if he knew I was the one who put him there . A certain drug dealer. or former drug dealer that is. Would have his posse out for me. Then there are al the other want to be bad boys who think they don't have to pay bills or whatever. I know how to make enemies and frankly revel in it. Google search "prayer of St Michael"
    Then whatever. Better to just say I'm not very impressed by stupid punks. More over. If they come armed with a 9 or a 40 I don't see much difference. Nor vise versa.

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master

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    (snip) I have never been in a real gunfight, so cannot prove it, but I do believe that my many years of pistol competition in various speed and accuracy oriented sports (bullseye and IPSC, and IDPA) increase the likelihood that I will have a lot better than 20-25% shots on target if I am ever required to defend myself. (snip) -MtGun44

    Well said Bill, and my informal research supports your conclusion. I was a longtime PPC competitor and many of my fellow competitors were gunfight veterans, almost all were police firearms instructors as well. For many years we had a clean record of active PPC shooters involved in gunfights until one was killed (in NYC, IIRC) in a no-win situation. Because of my years of competition I had a confidence that I believe helped me in many situations over the years.
    I'll never forget the story of a Dallas officer who had to fire multiple rounds of DPD issued subsonic 9mm ammo to finally reach a suspect behind the windshield of a sporstcar. He remembers concentrating on sight alignment and trigger control because he knew a single round would not penetrate and reach the bad guy but several in the exact same spot would. He was right, I believe it was the 7th and subsequent rounds that finally penetrated and stopped the shooter that was trying to shoot his partner.
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  3. #43
    Boolit Master gnostic's Avatar
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    The 9mm seems to be about 'the law of diminishing returns.'

    No offence, but, the gel tests don't support your theory. The 40 cal is already loaded flat out. And, if you believe, what you see on-line, the 9mm out performs the 40 cal in ballistic gel. I don't have a dog in the fight, it's just an observation. My theory is, power thrills but speed kills...

  4. #44
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    I am amazed! First computer simulations dictated that lightweight high speed projectiles were the "superior" stopping round....and the FBI carried them, except for a few old dinosaurs....until the rounds proved a disaster in real life and death situations. Now we talk about "gel tests" proving the superiority of the 9mm? Is that gel covered in heavy clothing?, could there be an arm in front of the torso? ribs? sternum? glass? drywall?.....
    Lets ignore over 100 yrs of history...with real life shootings...a history that has shown the 9mm in any bullet configuration is a mediocre stopper at best and decidedly inferior to larger caliber handguns. Sorry, any newfangled bullet that works better in a 9 can be developed for a 10 or a 45. I don't care what color lipstick you put on it...a pig is still a pig. In real life, expanding bullets Don't Always Expand. Delta Force carry .45's and the Marine Corps has put in a requirement for a new handgun...a .45. In every case when we have adopted the .35 bore, since the first 38's in the Philippines...it had been a failure.
    People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. The sad part, for me, is that the people making the decisions are not the ones whose butt is on the line.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hodges View Post
    I am amazed! First computer simulations dictated that lightweight high speed projectiles were the "superior" stopping round....and the FBI carried them, except for a few old dinosaurs....until the rounds proved a disaster in real life and death situations. Now we talk about "gel tests" proving the superiority of the 9mm? Is that gel covered in heavy clothing?, could there be an arm in front of the torso? ribs? sternum? glass? drywall?.....
    Lets ignore over 100 yrs of history...with real life shootings...a history that has shown the 9mm in any bullet configuration is a mediocre stopper at best and decidedly inferior to larger caliber handguns.
    But, if you change that 9mm to a .357, it becomes a pretty good stopper.

    Take a .223 round, cut it off at the shoulder, and stick a 9mm bullet in it at that point. That should give you plenty of powder space.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    The second chart is interesting though. It shows a .22 being more effective than any other listed handgun round.

    Even though this is about averages, I have to wonder if perhaps the typical shooting with a .22 is not the same as the typical shooting with a 9mm or .40SW.
    I have a feeling that most shootings involving a .22 handgun are at extreme close range with bullets to the head or contact wounds to the area around the heart.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    You've appoint rick. I've always been a 9mm fan. But don't have any dilutions. They will do some things better than a 45 acp. Like penetrate steel wheel rims. But not when you dumb them down with typical police ammo of HP design. When the US Arm picked there caliber for the new hand gun trials that lead to the 1911 adoption. Story goes. they went to the Chicago stock yards and shot a bunch of hogs in the lot. Since this was just after the turn of 19th century they tested stuff like 30 Mauser/ Luger, 38 Special/auto, 9mm Luger and some others. I very much doubt there fondness of the 45 Colt swayed the decision as they had things like stop watches. They found hogs died faster when shot with the 45 caliber. They used different bullets and loads. Someone here may have a handy link to the report.

    That said I've never been a 45 acp fan shot one a couple weeks ago and remembered why. but "I'm so stoned I've fallen out of love with autos all together. Old service revolvers in 38 Special are my new little friends. I've the NOE copy of Lyman 358429 going just under 900 fps over H-Universal with a bullet weight of 177 grains. It's actually pretty impressive. with a set of low cost Hogue grips on the M15 or M10 heavy 4" barrel recovery time is nill. Just what the trigger pull sequence is. Now I'm not saying that a good PPC shooter couldn't clean my clock with a 1911. But I very much impressed the fellow shooters. Who were both AZ state D.O.C. officers who up to recently had to carry 38 Special revolvers. But they had to also use those pansy LE loads. My loads are not listed as +P but I don't shoot them in my old revolvers. Save those for wad cutters and they are super accurate with them. What impressed the boys is how I had to wait on the heavy steel swinger to come back down so I could shoot it again. They had no such issue with there 1911's as the plate was swinging away by the time they'd hit it again. They did beat me in all the scoring games we shot so I have to claim victory someplace. Short of it is it always going to be more who's behind the sights than 50 or so foot pounds one way or the other. That said if I had my son in laws job. Of transporting Arizona State Prison inmates in a van. I'd be happy with the Glock 40's they are now issued with a 15 round mag in the grip and more on the belt. Plus the electronic com gear. Except I really don't' think my nerves would of held up on that job as a youthful man.

    The way I read this development on the FBI returning to 9mm. Is they wear suites with concealed carry pistols. So we have several nice miniature 9mm pistols around that are really to small to shoot with the recoil of a 40 S&W. I could be all wet there but I think not. There patrol rifle or shotgun in the car is after all there main gun.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    I have a feeling that most shootings involving a .22 handgun are at extreme close range with bullets to the head or contact wounds to the area around the heart.
    I have a feeling that most shootings with a 22 involve shooters who realize they don't have a cannon and actually take an aimed shot. Plus it's a lot easier to get results in an ambush murder situation than self defense. Charts shows the 9mm really low and that's simply because shooters think they have unlimited ammo and shoot center of mass as fast as they can pull the trigger. Same sort of thing with 44 mag. Shooters think a hit anywhere will blow opponent in half. Which just isn't true.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master

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    Pretty long winded and I didn't finish. I decided he was trying to tell me the earth was flat.

  10. #50
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    lets look at a few things when I was a kid police carried the 38 special then the 357 mag both revolvers then they needed more fire power and they went to the semi autos. First I think it was the 9mm then the 10 mm then the 40 now we are going back to the 9mm. I will admit that powder, bullets, firearms have improved over the decades. Yes I have access to a 38 special, 44 special, 9mm, 38 super, 45ACP, 357 mag to name a few and all have there place in life.
    I like the .35 calibers with 158-180 grain bullets, the 9mm &38 super with 135 grain, the 44 special with 255 grain, the 45 ACP 230 grain If you notice I like heavy bullets. Speed in flight is nice but if you need a barn door to hit something what good is it, if you don't train a lot what good is any bullet, lastly in a gun fight there is only one winner if you like and that is the guy who gets to go home afterwards.
    The FBI fires few rounds anymore they are more lawyers, business, mental assessment individuals, they are a resource more than a policing agency. It that a good thing I don't know I am not an FBI agent, they have more women, small build individuals, few come from a shooting background as a kid growing up. I like to think we are becoming more civilized and see more that we are going the opposite direction anymore.
    As to what the FBI wants to use as their duty round that is up to the bean counters at the FBI. But it is strange that the military is going away from the 9mm and the FBI is going towards it. Something is missing in this puzzle and I wonder if it is as simple as they need to spend more money to keep their funding up.
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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check