A 45-70 idea for reduced loads

[Ohio Rusty]

It looks like I'm soon to be the owner of a .45-70 Gen 1 contender barrel, super 16 with the muzzle brake. I have been reading the numerous posts about folks wanting a lighter boolet for a lighter load with less recoil. With a contender that I'm planning to become a carbine, a light fun shooting load would be good. There is a 220 grain conical pistol boolit, .456, for the Ruger BP pistol. Has anyone discussed modifying that boolit so the boolit and bands all mic .458? That boolit might weigh (after modification) approx. 230 to 235 grains. Trail boss would be great for a boolit like this. Any thoughts or comments on having a different boolit other than the half pounders that are the common boolits for the .45/70??
Ohio Rusty

[NavyVet1959]

Lee makes a .457" round ball mold that supposedly drops at 143.28 gr. Without going with a serious hollowpoint, it would probably be difficult to go much below that.

[Ohio Rusty]

My experience with a roundball shot from a fast twist barrel, the accuracy is lousy and the ball is unpredictable where it will hit on target. That is why roundballs don't work well with inline rifles with a fast twist at any distance. My lowest weight option is a 292 grainer by lyman. I have no desire to fire a 400 to 500 grain howitzer round from a T/C contender carbine. Ouch!!! Just looking to create an effective deer load that isn't punishing or overly uncomfortable.
Ohio Rusty

[WALLNUTT]

Collar buttons

[Greg in Malad]

Any 300 grain bullet propelled by Trail Boss produces very light recoil. Another option is to contact Accurate Molds and specify a .45 caliber 250 grain pistol bullet @.458 diameter. Earlier this year I had Tom build a 250 grain roundnose flatpoint in .458 diameter, it knocks over steel targets with no recoil. If you want a lightweight bullet, Midsouth has the Lyman collar button molds is stock.

[Doc Highwall]

This is the collar button mould by Lyman 457130.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/947...ton-round-nose

[NavyVet1959]

Not sure about a TC Contender carbine, but the 405 gr bullet fired from a Marlin is not bad if you load it with 9-13 gr of Red Dot.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/4570g405_dat.htm

More of a "push" instead of a "kick".

Now, if you're wanting the lighter round so that you can conserve lead, I can fully understand it. Those 405 gr bullets eat into your lead supply quite a bit.

[big bore 99]

I had one of those Encore 45-70's with a 15" barrel. Traded it off. It sure was a handful with 405's. The lightest I've ever loaded was 340 cast. Was still a very stout load.

[Artful]

muzzle-loader sabots, 45 Caliber sabots
http://mmpsabots.com/recommended-bullet-list/
with either 180gr to 200gr .38cal bullets or 200 grain .40 caliber bullets
loaded in .45-70 cases.

or try paper patch .451 or .454 bullets for your .458 bore.

Traditional molds usually start about 300 grains - for the old express loadings
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/173...fn-45-caliber-

Bullet # : 457191
Grain: 292gr
Top Punch : 191
Single Cavity # : 2640191
Copy of the original factory bullet for the 45-60, 45-70 and 45-125 Express.




RCBS 458-diameter-300-grain-flat-nose-gas-check


Lee's 340 grain design


LYMAN Bullet # : 457122

Grain: 330gr

Top Punch : 191

Single Cavity # : 2650122

This is the famous 45-330 Gould Express bullet designed by John Barlow, founder of Ideal. Made for Mr. Gould, editor of Shooting and Fishing. Great reputation as a killer of large game. Superior performance in all 45 cal cartridges. (Hollow point).

[stephen m weiss]

If you only want to go up .002 on diameter to use a slightly undersize bullet, you might try something I am in testing with. A single quick coat of grey filler primer produces a thickness of about .001, so .002 on the diameter. I used powder coat for years in certain applications, but in industry, it is well known that for most applications a well done application of paint baked on is as good as powder coat and much easier on the wallet. Since lumpy wax, which is nearly the same density as paint, works just fine on cast bullets, clearly a well done application of paint will be somewhere in between wax and powdercoat. Powdercoat naturally evens the thickness due to it's dielectric action. A bullet painted nose up evens the thickness due to its raindropish shape.

I went down to home depot and bought a can of grey filler metal primer and sprayed bullets nose up on a board. After 15 minutes to set, I baked some of the painted bullets at 200F for 2 hours which hardened them since they were quenched. I also baked some at 450F and water quenched them. Both worked fine, although the 450F showed a very slight yellowing. The paint survived the water quench, and then passed an aggressive tape peel test at room temp. I think the primer stuff, which is designed to covalently bond with metal, bonded REAL well with the virgin lead/antimony at the high temperature. I chambered and unchambered rounds several times from the magazine. The paint does not flake off. I shot one for a speed test and it acted as expected. I need to test accuracy but dont expect anything radical. I also lubed a few with alox and the flat dry primer and it held the lube really well. There are very high performance bearing materials that are made in a similar way. It is possible that the combination may work REALLY well to allow higher speeds.

The point is that a coat of baked on primer is really easy to build and test rather than modifying a mold.

[StrawHat]

If you have the mold, you could "beagle" it out to the diameter you want.

[Ohio Rusty]

Alot will depend on how my .44 mag loads perform out of my super 14 barrel. With this week being the start of Ohio deer season, if the .44 does really well on deer, I may forego the .45/70 idea and spend the bigger bucks and get a .44 mag bullberry barrel made. The .45/70 sure would be a good deer whacker though........
Ohio Rusty

[NavyVet1959]

Alot will depend on how my .44 mag loads perform out of my super 14 barrel. With this week being the start of Ohio deer season, if the .44 does really well on deer, I may forego the .45/70 idea and spend the bigger bucks and get a .44 mag bullberry barrel made. The .45/70 sure would be a good deer whacker though........
Ohio Rusty

The .45-70 is for when you don't want to have to wonder, "Did I bring enough gun?"... Maybe more of an issue with hogs than with deer -- especially around here. Most of the deer (usually does) I see around here are hardly worth the effort to harvest them.

[stephen m weiss]

I tested the filler primer to up-size bullets. Nope, bad accuracy. I guess the primer is just not strong enough to keep stability. As a lubricant, it was ok, and within the standard deviation of Lee Alox, though nominally 25% worse group size. I have to shoot a lot more to get better data. Given how easy alox is to apply, I am not sure what utility the primer has, but it wont change with temperature much, having been baked out at 450F...That would be something at -10F or 120F.

[Clark]

To kill coons with a body shot from a 45/70 that sounds like a BB gun, I had to get the powder charge down, the peak pressure up, the expansion ratio up, and the gas escape pressure below 1 atmosphere above ambient to stay sub sonic.

.458" 145 gr Collar button bullet Lyman mould #457130 from Western
Bullet co MT

The powder was set on top of the capacity reducer in the case.
The bullet was set on top of the powder.
The cartridge was gently lifted into the chamber while staying vertical
so the bullet would not fall off.
The action was closed and that forced the bullet into the lands.

0.6 gr Bullseye .....287 fps........ quiet
0.7 gr Bullseye .....384 fps........ quiet
0.8 gr Bullseye .....354 fps........ quiet
0.9 gr Bullseye .....388 fps........ hollow sound but quiet enough
1.0 gr Bullseye .....441 fps........ sounds like a loud pellet gun, but no blam
1.1 gr Bullseye .....418 fps........ sounds like a loud pellet gun, but no blam
1.2 gr Bullseye .....536 fps........ sounds like a very loud pellet gun, but no blam

[stephen m weiss]

OMG! That's awesome. I dont think i fully understand the cross sectional details, but I was amazed that you got good ignition down that longof a flashtube. I think I am gonna have to read this in the morning fresh with coffee again!

[dlbarr]

To kill coons with a body shot from a 45/70 that sounds like a BB gun, I had to get the powder charge down, the peak pressure up, the expansion ratio up, and the gas escape pressure below 1 atmosphere above ambient to stay sub sonic.

.458" 145 gr Collar button bullet Lyman mould #457130 from Western
Bullet co MT

The powder was set on top of the capacity reducer in the case.
The bullet was set on top of the powder.
The cartridge was gently lifted into the chamber while staying vertical
so the bullet would not fall off.
The action was closed and that forced the bullet into the lands.

0.6 gr Bullseye .....287 fps........ quiet
0.7 gr Bullseye .....384 fps........ quiet
0.8 gr Bullseye .....354 fps........ quiet
0.9 gr Bullseye .....388 fps........ hollow sound but quiet enough
1.0 gr Bullseye .....441 fps........ sounds like a loud pellet gun, but no blam
1.1 gr Bullseye .....418 fps........ sounds like a loud pellet gun, but no blam
1.2 gr Bullseye .....536 fps........ sounds like a very loud pellet gun, but no blam

OK Clark, so which of the above loads was used to dispatch the coons?

Also, would Trail Boss or Unique be a reasonable replacement for Bullseye in this situation?

[zippidydoodah]

What was the reason the powder was put above the capacity reducer ? I thought the capacity reducer was card wadding but see it is metal thru drilled for flash hole. I guess this rye design could be used on all types of cartridges. How did you come up with this design? It is great.!!!

[Shooter6br]

I use 350 grain cast reduced load http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[NavyVet1959]

What was the reason the powder was put above the capacity reducer ? I thought the capacity reducer was card wadding but see it is metal thru drilled for flash hole. I guess this rye design could be used on all types of cartridges. How did you come up with this design? It is great.!!!

i suspect it was so that he could increase chamber pressure (if the capacity reducer is a solid piece of brass with a hole drilled through it) or to keep the small amount of powder in the same position in the cartridge (if the capacity reducer is not solid) for consistent ignition.