Waiting For Argentine Model 1891

[alamogunr]

Sitting here today waiting for the Brown Truck to bring my Argentine 1891 (DWM 1901) today. This will be my first experience with this rifle and cartridge. I have to acquire dies, brass and maybe look for another powder.

Just about every manufacture has dies. Do any Argie enthusiasts out there have any reason to prefer a particular brand of dies? I'm tempted to try C-H even though they are about $10-$15 more expensive than Hornady or RCBS, but cheaper than Redding. The only reason I ask is that Redding is recommended for the K31 and thought there might be a reason to spend more $$ for this rifle.

The only brass I can find is Prvi or Norma. The Norma is about $1/pc more expensive than Prvi and for my use the Prvi will be adequate.

I can probably use powders I have on hand but if there is an optimum powder, I might go looking for it.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

[leadman]

I bought the Lee dies, had problems and bought the RCBS 7.65X53 Belgium dies. These will full length size slightly shorter than the Arg. dies.
I have 3 1891 Arg. rifles and every chamber is slightly different so size to the chamber of your gun. I haven't tried the Privi Arg. brass but the Carcano and 6.5 Arisaka are not the highest quality. There is variation in the rim thickness and extractor groove cuts. Just don't expect the Privi to equal American or Norma brass.
Arg. brass is easy to reform from any 30-06 based case as long as it is longer than the Arg. 308 won't work, 7X57, 8X57, 30-06, etc will work. I bought a trim die to reform brass with as it makes it fast and easy.
Slug the bore as they tend to go from about .312" to .315". 4895 or AA2520 work great for jacketed for me. For cast just about any of the powders that work for other similar cartridges can work. Every rifle seems to have a powder it likes.

[John Allen]

I always liked the Argentine 1891. Someday I will grab one.

[alamogunr]

Thanks, leadman. Since I don't expect to ever have more than this one Argentine 1891, chamber variation shouldn't be a problem once I determine it's characteristics.

I wasn't considering the Lee dies and without a knowledgeable recommendation I am not considering Redding either.

Your two powders are right in line with what I have on hand. I am glad to see 2520 recommended. I have 2 eight pounders(less a little bit) that I got VERY cheap. It doesn't seem to be recommended very often.

Anyone else have info?

[jonk]

If you go with cast, try the Lyman 314299 (assuming bore is .313 or tighter, otherwise beagle it or get the NOE version that measures .316) and try it over 25 gr of 5744. Work up to that of course. Start around 20.

I find that I had to neck ream formed 30-06 brass that was trimmed in all 4 of my argentine mausers. I know others haven't had to, so just someting to consider if you go that route.

PRVI brass is fine. I agree, it's not as good as Norma, but for the price it's worth it.

I have used Lee, Lyman, and RCBS in this caliber for dies. Don't see that any one did better than another.

[Scharfschuetze]

I hope that your 1891 shoots as well as mine!

My rifle slugs out at .301 X .311 and really likes the Lyman 314299 boolit sized to .313 over SR 4759 powder. I use the RCBS case forming die to make cases from Lake City 30/06 brass.

I originally used Lee dies and I had to remove .005" from the base of the die to get cases to chamber. Once the cases were fireformed to the chamber, I've just been neck sizing my loads. I just bought the RCBS 7.65 dies, but I haven't used 'em yet as the neck sized cases haven't needed any bumping yet. With its short neck, the long and heavy boolits will have a lube groove above the lip of the case.

50 yard groups generally run about an inch or slightly more for 10 shots. That long and heavy 314299 boolit holds well out to several hundred yards.

[alamogunr]

If you go with cast, try the Lyman 314299 (assuming bore is .313 or tighter, otherwise beagle it or get the NOE version that measures .316) and try it over 25 gr of 5744. Work up to that of course. Start around 20.

I find that I had to neck ream formed 30-06 brass that was trimmed in all 4 of my argentine mausers. I know others haven't had to, so just someting to consider if you go that route.

PRVI brass is fine. I agree, it's not as good as Norma, but for the price it's worth it.

I have used Lee, Lyman, and RCBS in this caliber for dies. Don't see that any one did better than another.

jonk: I've got all three of the 3xx291 molds in 2 cavity. With all the recommendations for that version, I decided to be prepared for anything.

I'm going to order the PRVI brass. In the long run it will be much cheaper than forming from .30-06. I don't have a lot of .30-06 anyway.

As for powder, I haven't seen 5744 around here or on any of the dealer web sites. For now I'll go with 4895 or AA2520 since I'm well supplied with both.

[alamogunr]

I hope that your 1891 shoots as well as mine!

My rifle slugs out at .301 X .311 and really likes the Lyman 314299 boolit sized to .313 over SR 4759 powder. I use the RCBS case forming die to make cases from Lake City 30/06 brass.

I originally used Lee dies and I had to remove .005" from the base of the die to get cases to chamber. Once the cases were fireformed to the chamber, I've just been neck sizing my loads. I just bought the RCBS 7.65 dies, but I haven't used 'em yet as the neck sized cases haven't needed any bumping yet. With its short neck, the long and heavy boolits will have a lube groove above the lip of the case.

50 yard groups generally run about an inch or slightly more for 10 shots. That long and heavy 314299 boolit holds well out to several hundred yards.

I haven't decided which dies to order yet. May be awhile with all the holiday activities. I am really curious about C-H dies. They cost a little more but the site says I can specify a custom expander diameter when ordering. But it also says that the dies are designed for a .313 bullet so I assume they mean cast.

OH! The rifle was delivered about an hour ago. Looks good. I'm not familiar with it since it is my first Argentine and the bolt doesn't want to assemble. It will go in part way and then stop. I haven't had time to examine it closely but it is bumping up against something. I'll figure it out later this afternoon. In the meantime, if someone knows that I am overlooking something obvious, set me straight.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Is the bolt un-cocked? If so the bolt sleeve has rotated out of line with the bolt body preventing insertion. If you catch the cocking piece/sear projection against a firm surface like the edge of a workbench with the rear of the bolt pointing up and then pull down on the body you will pull the cocking piece to the rear and should be able, while maintaining the downward pressure with one hand, to rotate the bolt sleeve and safety back to the left. Once it's back where it belongs it should stay in that position and slide right in. Another technique is to capture the cocking piece projection in a bench vise and pull the bolt body forward and then turn it clockwise. Unless there is some foreign object inside the receiver there should normally be nothing to prevent insertion.

[leadman]

For some reason I never get the brand of my 7.65 dies correct. They are from RCBS.
A pair of slip joint pliers can be used to preset the bolt as above. With the arthritis in my hands I make use of all the tools I can.

[alamogunr]

Is the bolt un-cocked? If so the bolt sleeve has rotated out of line with the bolt body preventing insertion. If you catch the cocking piece/sear projection against a firm surface like the edge of a workbench with the rear of the bolt pointing up and then pull down on the body you will pull the cocking piece to the rear and should be able, while maintaining the downward pressure with one hand, to rotate the bolt sleeve and safety back to the left. Once it's back where it belongs it should stay in that position and slide right in. Another technique is to capture the cocking piece projection in a bench vise and pull the bolt body forward and then turn it clockwise. Unless there is some foreign object inside the receiver there should normally be nothing to prevent insertion.

I have gone out to the shop and discovered that I overlooked one thing when I described my difficulty inserting the bolt. I was able to insert it about 3+ inches before it stopped. When I went back to follow your instructions, I found that I could not remove the bolt from the receiver. It is as if the retractable stop(?) isn't retracting. There is about 2+ inches of travel either in or out.

I'm giving up for tonight before I get frustrated and break something.

[polara426sh]

I have an older set of CH dies and have had no problems with them. They work just as well as most other sets I have used. As for the bolt issue, maybe it's sticking on the rear action screw. Just back it out a couple of turns and see if that helps.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, my guess is that the problem is as I described and that the turned bolt sleeve has wedged on top of the tang that has the raceway for the bolt/sear nub in it. You really can't hurt it. This exact same thing has happened to me. Just give the bolt handle a whack with a rubber mallet and it will come out. Put your other hand or something soft behind the bolt to catch it because the whack may expel it rather rapidly and we don't want it hitting the concrete (or whatever). There is absolutely nothing in the bolt channel in the receiver to interfere with insertion of the bolt. Oh--you will have to hold the ejector open when performing this removal operation. That is the little oblong box on the left rear of the receiver and it is hinged at it's rearmost part and the front part pulls away from the receiver to the left. It is easy to overlook on the Argentine 1891 because the little handle to pull it outward is shaped like and blended into the receiver, but once you know it's there it's easy to do. The trigger sear also enters the receiver's channel but is down in the raceway slot for the cocking piece and shouldn't present a problem of any sort. Get back to us---I don't believe you'll have much more problem with it. If you do, I'll dig one of mine out and post some "how to do it" photos for you.

[alamogunr]

Thanks! I'll try that tomorrow morning. I don't like to do anything drastic late and when I'm tired. I will get back after I try your solution and let you know how it went.

BTW, what you call the ejector, I called a retractable stop. They exist on most of my mil-surps but I never bothered to learn the correct nomenclature.

[Huffmanite]

Have a few 91 Argies myself. One seems to have a very strong firing pin spring, takes an extra stout push on the handle to close the bolt. Been a few times I've let someone else shoot the rifle and they were surprised by the pressure it took to push the bolt in on this cock on closing rifle.

You can always, remove the ejector box on the side of receiver by removing its screw, to see if you can then easily remove the bolt from receiver. That is if you have a screw on it. Had a junk 91 Argy once that had a pin instead of a screw holding the ejector box.

[Huffmanite]

I've always just used Lee dies to reload my 91 Argentines, 7.65x53 ammo. Can't recall having a problem with my Lee dies with Norma or Prvi brass in three 91 Argentines rifles. Leadman wrote he used the RCBS 7.65x53 Belgium dies to reload his Argy. Sure don't dispute that, but I recall a post on some gunsite a number of years ago by a gent who'd bought these RCBS dies to reload his Argy, don't recall if he had a 1891 or 1909 Argy but both use the same cartridge. Anyway, he had a problem with the Belgium die resizing his brass and then realized RCBS had an Argentine version of it and would return the Belgium set for an Argentine set. This solved his resizing problem of his brass. Sorry, can't recall what he wrote was the difference between the two dies, may have been as Leadman wrote, difference in the shoulder.

Having read many a post on gunsites, such as Surplus Rifle Forum, Gunboards, Mauser Central and etc., over the last 6 or so years, one of the things I've learned about the Argentine 1891 and reloading its ammo and shooting factory ammo in it.....seems to be some disagreement on just what is correct/right. Much of the disagreement seems to be kinda related to whether you are shooting a 1891 or 1909. For example, some would caution you that Norma ammo was made to shoot in a 1909 Argy, a large ring action, which can handle higher pressures and has better features for handling rifle case failures than the small ring 91 Argy receiver. In other words, some would say the Norma ammo is too hot for the 91 Argy. Back in the later 60s, used my first 91 Argy rifle for deer hunting and Norma was the only ammo I could buy to hunt with.....7.65x53 150gr Norma killed a number of whitetail deer quite well for me back then. Personally, now days, just to be on the safe side, I reload my Argy ammo nearer the suggested start load data for powder than the max load data and occasionally use IMR Train Boss with jacketed bullets to lob bullets down range.

[alamogunr]

Have a few 91 Argies myself. One seems to have a very strong firing pin spring, takes an extra stout push on the handle to close the bolt. Been a few times I've let someone else shoot the rifle and they were surprised by the pressure it took to push the bolt in on this cock on closing rifle.

You can always, remove the ejector box on the side of receiver by removing its screw, to see if you can then easily remove the bolt from receiver. That is if you have a screw on it. Had a junk 91 Argy once that had a pin instead of a screw holding the ejector box.

Well, I don't consider this rifle to be junk, but it has a pin so cannot be removed w/o removing action from stock. At least, I assume that it can't. Did what you are calling the "ejector box" pivot on the screw?

Then again it may be "junk" if I can't get the bolt out.

[azrednek]

I originally used Lee dies and I had to remove .005" from the base of the die to get cases to chamber.
.

Since I've been hanging around various gun and handloading groups over the past 10 years. I've seen numerous posts regarding problems with Lee dies and the 7.65. Lee will send you a form letter saying their specs are within SAAMI specs.

If you do opt for Lee dies make certain you use the shell holder supplied with the kit and it might work. I opted to grind slightly on my Lee supplied shell holder to bump the shoulder back far enough to fit rather than work on the die. Previously I had a set of old Pacific brand dies and had loaded and re-formed hundreds if not thousands of 06 cases without a problem. Unfortunately I loaned them and never got them back. After buying the Lee brand, having problems and taking it to the net. I discovered there were numerous posts in regards to the Lee 7.65 sizing die.

It should apply to all shooting but do not under any circumstance shoot a 91 Mauser without safety glasses. Even more important if you shoot re-formed 06 brass. The 91 does not have a vent for any gas escaping over the shoulder during fire-forming or a split case. The vent was added by Mauser in the 93 Series. I literally fried the lens of my shooting glasses when a piece of Norma brass split. If I didn't have the glasses on it would have been my eye that was deep fried.

Your best bet it to avoid Lee brand dies for the 7.65. I use numerous other Lee dies without any problems but I've simply lost count of all the complaints I've seen posted in regards to the Lee sizing die and the 7.65.

[azrednek]

Having read many a post on gunsites, such as Surplus Rifle Forum, Gunboards, Mauser Central and etc., over the last 6 or so years, one of the things I've learned about the Argentine 1891 and reloading its ammo and shooting factory ammo in it.....seems to be some disagreement on just what is correct/right. Much of the disagreement seems to be kinda related to whether you are shooting a 1891 or 1909.

In the mid-70's one of my shooting buds bought a 300 rd case of soft tipped 7.65 Argie hunting ammo manufactured in Argentina from SARCO. Printed on the box in Spanish was a warning not to use the ammo in the Model 91's.

[Huffmanite]

LOL, the junk 91 Argy I was referring to, was a complete barreled action a neighbor of mine gave me that he'd found on the curb in some one's garbage can.....completely covered in rust, barrel was bent around 5 degrees. This one had a pin in the ejector box. First time I'd ever seen a pin, instead of a screw in a 91 Argy. I assume it was a very early made one.

FWIW, the 91 Argentine rifle was a very well made and beautiful rifle for its day.....Mauser's first successful design to be sold. Great care was taken in the quality of its manufacture.