What happened this time?

[roadie]

Guys the high velocity thread was bring up alot of ideas and thoughts about how to go fast with cast. Made me start thinking of a few things I was not do and what I needed to look ahead to for going fast. It didn't matter what rifle was being used cause each one is pretty unieq to themselves. Just wish we could have new data everyday but there has to be time for our jobs and family. So as soon as the delays in information started then the drift started. To bad, now I will have to try alot of things that if others had failed already then I might not have to waist time going thru it. Maybe someone will start a chat where this discussion can cont' but by invitaition only,comes to mind. I know some will have to poke fun at others and on the net it can be taken wrong real fast like. I don't care if you disagree with each other but the calling out and finger pointing needs to be done somewhere else. I want to learn "How Can I Make A Boolit Go Fast"
We need to pool imfor. and ideas to get there. So now what do we do to get back to the fast track?
CD

Very well said.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that shooting high velocity cast, with good accuracy in common rifles, is gonna happen overnight. It could well take years, though some claim to be doing it now.

I personally don't care when btroj does his tests, it's not like he, or most people, can just drop everything else in life and jump on it. There are other concerns that demand time.

I would much rather all the info be available in one stickied thread, rather than in a dozen scattered all over the place. And considering how much controversy surrounds this subject, I don't understand why it hasn't been set up so it's just one thread, well moderated and crud kept out of it.....so it goes weeks or months with little input, so what, at least it's easy to find.

Okay....two stickied threads....each "side" can present it's case.

[dtknowles]

That is pretty well where I am. I have lots of ideas but it will be a bit before I can test them.

Dare I ask what you shot?

I had 18 near perfect (weight sorted to +/- .1) 121 grain Loverlin bullets sized to .311, 2 grooves lubed with MML+.

Loaded in 30BR cases formed from WW 300 Savage brass. Powder charge was 34 Grains of BLC2. During bullet seating three were set aside because they seemed to have low neck tension. The brass is just decapped and reprimed. No sizing.

It was gusty with little calm at the range. My wind flags are just bamboo sticks with plastic streamers. I fired two of the low neck tension rounds to check the sights and fowl the bore. Sights were close enough so I move to a corner bull and fired a five shot group. The rifle is a glued in sleaved Rem 600. Used a rear sand bag and a cast iron front rest with elevation adjustment and windage (I don't use).

The first group starts as the same spot relative to the bull as the second fowler. One o clock two inches high. The next 4 shots form a dotted line to the right for about an inch and three quarters. The total vertical is less than a quarter inch. I am thinking awesome, a little more care with the wind flags and I am going to nail me a tiny group. I move to the upper right corner bull and start the second group. (oh, I adjusted the elevation knob, did not count the target lines carefully). First shot, carefully picking a calm, goes into the target at 6 o clock, I am thinking bad things but I keep the same point of aim and fire the second shot and it too, is at 6 o clock but slightly higher) (must have over corrected the elevation. Feeling good two more shots go in at 6 o clock, none touching but a nice little square. The final shot, bad words, it is at 12 o clock, opening the sub MOA group up to over two. I have rounds for another group and a sighter. I move to the lower left corner bull and the first shot is 8 o clock. Next shot is back at 6, another at 10, another back at 6 cutting deep into the whole there. Last shot is at 7 next to the bull, another two inch group. I was so disappointed I did not fire the remaining round, forgot all about it, I guess I saved a primer.

Tim

[btroj]

Tim, look for patterns. That is a big thing Run taught me. Is it always a certain shot number that goes out? I need to pay more attention to that, maybe start taking a small target to mark as I fire each shot.

Sounds like a sweet rifle.

[cbrick]

Tim, what barrel length? Velocity? Have you had success with BL-C in the past? Just wondering about muzzle pressure with that powder.

Rick

[dtknowles]

Short barrel, fastish powder, no more bullets. No sure the best bullet design. Wonder about the lube. Might be sized a thou to large.


Tim

[geargnasher]

Loverin bullet, perhaps a Lyman model with overly-skinny bearing bands? What's the seasoned condition of the barrel, and what lube?

Back to Stephen W.'s post way back, he is correct that translational energy on the lands due to torque is around half a percent, give or take depending on bullet radius and rifling twist. I've calculated that myself several times in several guns using the simple formula developed by Dr. Mann. What I kept coming up with was the pressure itself being less than the yield strength of typical alloys, but that it was possible to exceed the strength fairly easily, as in shooting pure lead at 1800 fps in a ten-twist, four-groove .30 caliber. What is NOT explained is abrasion damage of the lands. Several of us think this happens SOMETIMES and is definitely a possible failure point. Linotype is notorious for being sensitive to abrasion, which may be exacerbated by normal or fast twist rates. I'm beginning to think that tin in the alloy makes it more sensitive to abrasion. Sounds silly probably, but alloys with low antimony and an absolute minimum of tin, when heat treated, take abrasion very well. They also SHOOT very well and can take steep rifling twist rates IF you apply the correct techniques to launch and follow through to the muzzle with adequate pressure.

Gear

[cbrick]

Gear, that's where I'll start. 2% or under Sb and .5% Sn. Gonna order the XCB mold from Al. The only rifle I have to try any of this is a TCR 83 26" with a 10 twist in 308. Shoots several loads well but all of my shooting has been 1800-2000 fps with 180 gr, just never had need or reason to push it harder. Also from available powders on hand I'm gonna start with V-140. I have a 12 twist 308 with a Shilen Stainless match barrel but I don't know about HV with that. Might be fun to see what it could do with it's 15" barrel. I also have a couple of Rem 700's in 7-08, never pushed them either. Maybe I'm handicapping myself but I can't get it out of my head that the 7mm would make things more difficult. I also have fewer molds in 7mm.

Another thing, the only range I currently have available is 100 yards. Would take some serious tree surgery to get more range & the landowner would never go for that.

Should all be interesting.

Rick

[btroj]

Rick, I can shoot all the way to 600 but don't. I shoot to 100 only and that is good enough for me.

[Eutectic]

1. Back to Stephen W.'s post way back, he is correct that translational energy on the lands due to torque is around half a percent, give or take depending on bullet radius and rifling twist. I've calculated that myself several times in several guns using the simple formula developed by Dr. Mann. What I kept coming up with was the pressure itself being less than the yield strength of typical alloys, but that it was possible to exceed the strength fairly easily, as in shooting pure lead at 1800 fps in a ten-twist, four-groove .30 caliber.

2. What is NOT explained is abrasion damage of the lands. Several of us think this happens SOMETIMES and is definitely a possible failure point. Linotype is notorious for being sensitive to abrasion, which may be exacerbated by normal or fast twist rates.

3. I'm beginning to think that tin in the alloy makes it more sensitive to abrasion.
Gear

1. Question: Do your calculations include both boolit velocity and acceleration? (along with torque)

2. I'm not sure what I have seen is several examples over many years would be described as 'abrasion'..... It looks to me as more of a swaging action..... Pushing the alloy 'over' in layman's terms. If we could duplicate this phenomena at will I suppose we could find out by a pre and post weight? Be tough to stop our boolit without weight loss I imagine. Either way I repeat my analogy how a passenger train feels to a passenger when it is going fast on poor tracks..... If our boolit is not 'locked tight' in a circumferential uniformity during rotation who knows what the affects may be?

3. If 'abrasion' is the word them antimony is the culprit. (I believe) You know I started casting before the common term 'hard cast' was even spoken! You also know I shoot alloys as soft as I can for terminal boolit performance. Yet you have also seen I have shot very soft... very fast as well.

Eutectic

[dtknowles]

Tim, look for patterns. That is a big thing Run taught me. Is it always a certain shot number that goes out? I need to pay more attention to that, maybe start taking a small target to mark as I fire each shot.

Sounds like a sweet rifle.

I have been disappointed with this rifle since I got it but when you get a bench rest rifle for $1000 you can't expect it to be top grade. As far as patterns, there seem to be many forms. The first group told me the wind was giving me horizontal spread. The second group I think was trying to tell me I was lube fowled on the fifth shot. I should have patched before the third group. I use MML+soap sent by a member here, different from the member who provided the bullets. I shot last week as well and saw the flyers start at around shot 10 or so.Attachment 122741

[dtknowles]

I expect to hear howls from the herd, but contact Goodsteel to do a check of her.
I think he would be willing provided the workload on the bench is not too bad covered up. Just my 2 cents

Why would I get a smith to look over this gun. I might see if I can borrow a bore scope (doubt that will show much be a nice bore) the throat is hardly eroded, but otherwise what is the smith going to do. Relap the bolt lugs, check the crown, check the bedding, it is glued in, free floated and tight. It shoots jacketed under a half inch (sad performance I say) but certainly it should shoot cast under an inch.

Tim

[roadie]

What's the goal of high vel, accurate cast shooting?

Who is it supposed to benefit? I would hope it's for the average guy with an average rifle, who wants to get close to jacketed accuracy with cast.

Is it about shooting fast at any cost? I truly don't see the benefit of having to drag a rifle with a 30 inch barrel into the hunting grounds to bag a lil deer....it's a bit clumsy, not to mention the powder burns on the lil deer.

Or, is it more about bragging rights..."lookee what I can do and you can't...I AM the greatest!".

I would really like to hear from both (or more) viewpoints.

So, what's it all about?

[roadie]

Understandable on the 30" barrel.
it is about how to get as close as possiable to jacketed velocity by controlling those factors (variables) that limit how fast we can launch those bullets.
It is how do I cast a better bullet select the right componets to achieve the best I can with my rifle and comparing notes of hey I used this lube and it worked for me.
The idea of certain ranges and group size was to provide a even method of comparison. Simple. Twist is a factor, Lube is a factor, alloy is a factor, case prep and volume is a factor, ignition of the charge is a factor. It should be repeatable by anyone given the exact same componets and methods.

So, the general consensus is that it's not possible, (or extremely difficult) to achieve the goal with average rifles?

Meaning, of course, rifles that currently have good accuracy with jacketed bullets.

And silly as it may seem, I felt the need to clarify that....it seems tiny, lil things are pounced upon and twisted out of context...not saying by you.

[cbrick]

CBrick , Rick in post#156 I will say that sounds like pretty interesting test bed. Like you I not too sure about the 7mm. 100 yards, heck right now I not shooting past that until I can get the velocity up there within a reasonable accuracy level.

Which lube was you thinking of? Mike

Which 308 are you referring to? The TCR 83 or the 15" XP? The XP may present problems other than barrel length for velocity. Concerning barrel length I foresee a problem with powder burn rate slow enough and muzzle pressure, don't know yet, haven't tried it. Next is the rifling, no idea how that may effect HV with cast. Shallow groove and thin rifling, I'll have to try it to find out.

Lube? Like everything else I'll start out with what I have currently. LBT Blue, Lotak and several home made recipe's. I can read here, take notes, see what results I get with what I have and go from there. I intend to revisit the lube quest thread and see what I can pick up there but that thread is long enough to be a project in itself.

Rick

[Bodine]

Okay guys this is getting to be confrontational, please keep it civil. If all you would like to do is argue, find somewhere else to argue.

[geargnasher]

Rick, don't let fear of the short barrel or high muzzle pressure keep you from trying. You wouldn't believe the blast and fireball my 20" Pig Gun made at 23-2400 fps with slow ball powder, but I finally got it to group. Others are doing just dandy with "barely legal" rifle barrels.

Gear

[cbrick]

Rick, don't let fear of the short barrel or high muzzle pressure keep you from trying. You wouldn't believe the blast and fireball my 20" Pig Gun made at 23-2400 fps with slow ball powder, but I finally got it to group. Others are doing just dandy with "barely legal" rifle barrels. Gear

Dang, my computer has been messing up, I just wrote three paragraphs in response and poof. Gone.

I intend to try it Gear. It will be interesting if for no other reason than it's a direction I haven't gone before.

Rick

[cbrick]

Rick, don't let fear of the short barrel or high muzzle pressure keep you from trying. You wouldn't believe the blast and fireball my 20" Pig Gun made at 23-2400 fps with slow ball powder, but I finally got it to group. Others are doing just dandy with "barely legal" rifle barrels. Gear

Without trying to turn me into a chemist which lube have you had decent success with?

Rick

[geargnasher]

Felix lube. LBT Soft. Below 2K fps, Lyman Alox. Your best bet is probably going to be to pick up some decent candle paraffin from the craft store and some modern Vaseline and just go with the old NRA formula (you DO have a decent supply of yellow beeswax laid in, I presume?). I'm not going to say that what you're using now won't work, but for reasons other than accuracy I haven't done enough shooting with it at any speed to give you a meaningful data point.

Gear

[cbrick]

Felix lube. LBT Soft. Below 2K fps, Lyman Alox. Your best bet is probably going to be to pick up some decent candle paraffin from the craft store and some modern Vaseline and just go with the old NRA formula (you DO have a decent supply of yellow beeswax laid in, I presume?). I'm not going to say that what you're using now won't work, but for reasons other than accuracy I haven't done enough shooting with it at any speed to give you a meaningful data point. Gear

I have the LBT, kinda. LBT used to have two lubes, hard and soft, I bought quite a supply of what was the soft. As near as I can tell what used to be his soft is now his mid range since he came out with one he now calls soft. Unless I hear reason to try something different I'll start with that. It's already in the Star. The other Star has home made Lotak. No Lyman alox, no LEE stuff, no anything lube in a bottle. No Felix lube for no other reason than it's been on the to do list for way to long.

Rick