Looking for input on 45 ACP in S&W 1917 and Model 25

[Crlrca]

Wow the depth of knowledge is amazing. Keep it coming! Thanks so much.
crl

[azrednek]

I switched to Herco 'bout 30 years ago for all cast revolver and .45 ACP semi-auto loads in: .38, .357, .44 special, .44 mag., .45 AR .45 Colt. Elmer Keith tells us Unique (thought it can give amazing accuracy) can burn minute bits from lead from the base of PB cast. A slower powder will work better in many cases.

It is a toss up as to which is my favorite handgun powder, Bullseye or Herco. Herco seems to be disappearing!! I haven't seen it for sale anywhere for a few years. Alliant with their latest chicken-xxxt data. Herco is only shown in a few handgun loads. Quite the opposite from the Hercules Herco data that had loads for nearly every handgun caliber. I have a feeling Alliant may be phasing it out.

[35remington]

Doubtful. Based on that reasoning Alliant is phasing most of their pistol/shotgun powders out as a lot of powders are missing from data that is current. They used to list loads with every powder they had for 45 ACP, or nearly so. Not anymore.

[azrednek]

Doubtful. Based on that reasoning Alliant is phasing most of their pistol/shotgun powders out as a lot of powders are missing from data that is current. They used to list loads with every powder they had for 45 ACP, or nearly so. Not anymore.

Simply speculation on my part. Alliant has introduced new pistol powders and are not being stingy with the data as they are with their old stand-bys. My guess is the newer powders with modern manufacturing are increasing their margins and bottom line.


If it is Alliant's intention to persuade me to use their new powders it is back-firing. I re-discovered Hodgden's HS-6 and HP-38. Powders I had not used in 25+ years but that changed when the shortages began. With Alliant being stingy with data and production of my favorites. They have sent me to their chief competitor.

[flint45]

I have a s&w 625 and two model 1917 smiths they are my favorites the 625 is the most accurate handgun I have ever shot. 7.0 grains of accurate #5 and a lee 200 grain TL boolit will shoot in a golf ball sized hole all day. Also like PB, red dot,231 and unique.my r.c.b.s. 260 grain keith swc is another great boolit for the these guns also.

[35remington]

By the same reasoning as you used with Herco they're also phasing out Bullseye. Don't worry about it. Their old standards aren't going away.

The reason you don't see much Herco on the shelves lately is that nobody has been seeing any pistol or shotgun powders on the shelves lately due to the panic. I haven't seen any Bullseye in the last two years on the shelves either. Must be because they are phasing it out!

Way too many holes in your reasoning for it to hold water or be credible as a theory or reality. You'd have to be living in a hole in the ground to believe that shortages are due to the fact that Alliant is phasing powders out or discontinuing your "favorites." It's due to panic buying and nothing else.

[rintinglen]

By the same reasoning as you used with Herco they're also phasing out Bullseye. Don't worry about it. Their old standards aren't going away.

The reason you don't see much Herco on the shelves lately is that nobody has been seeing any pistol or shotgun powders on the shelves lately due to the panic. I haven't seen any Bullseye in the last two years on the shelves either. Must be because they are phasing it out!

Way too many holes in your reasoning for it to hold water or be credible as a theory or reality. You'd have to be living in a hole in the ground to believe that shortages are due to the fact that Alliant is phasing powders out or discontinuing your "favorites." It's due to panic buying and nothing else.

Absolutely true.

I have a friend at work who loads at most 300 rounds a year, mostly 6.5 x 55, some 7 mm Mauser. At the last gun show he bought 8 pounds Each of IMR-4064 and 4895, plus three pounds of Varget. This is a guy who uses maybe 1.5 pounds a year. He just bought a 10 year supply! Multiply that times maybe 400,000 reloaders all buying whatever they can whenever they can, and you can see how it might be hard to keep up.

[StrawHat]

It appears as though Char-Gar and others have considerably more experience with it than me. My shot to shot accuracy using ACP brass on moon clips seems to run close to Auto Rim brass with the exception I noted previously using the SAECO button nosed wadcutter. I do make an effort to segregate my ACP by headstamps by type or manufacture on moon clips. Mixing the headstamps accuracy suffers slightly. I've only loaded Remington brand AR brass, possibly better over-all results are obtained using Starline. I'm simply speculating that the improved results with the button nosed wadcutter in AR brass may have something to do with the deep seated slug. There is not much room for a powder charge in ACP brass and a small charge of Bullseye or Unique is compressed slightly.


A Brazilian contract I traded away shot better for me with .454 sized slugs or jacketed. I'm assuming it may have something to do with wear. The one I currently have shoots considerably better with .452. Of coarse you'll never know until you slug your bore and try both.

Char-Gar is dead on what he says about the pre-war and the Brazilian contract in particular. Be kind to it and it will likely out last you. I use Brazilian as a plinker keeping the loads mild using it mostly for double action practice. For more serious target work I use my 1955 Target model and it is probably the most accurate revolver I own.


For years of having an abundant supply of large tractor trailer type wheel weights. My 45 cal alloy was strictly clip-ons. Maybe adding a tad of tin if I wasn't filling the mold satisfactorily. My last cache of 45 auto castings were a 50/50 mix of clip-ons and pure. Accuracy fell of a bit but I believe it is more likely due to failing eyesight. Seems like on or about birthday # 60 my all handgun shooting is on a steady decline. Sweet thing about the mild 45 ACP loads is I can shoot them for hours without the fatigue and flinching with their gentle recoil. None of my business really what somebody does with their own property. My opinion (for what it is worth) is you will be happier with the results shooting on the mild side. If you do as I did get the urge to hunt with a 45 ACP revolver. Char-Gars or any of the suggested loads with the 45423 or as I did with SAECO's gas checked version will do the trick on small and medium game. Perfect Yote medicine. On my unsuccessful Javalina hunt. One of our group claimed his Javy dropped immediately using store-bought 45423's. launched from a 2nd generation Colt. Been to many years to recall his 45 Colt powder charge. The slug blew clean through at what he claimed was a 50 yard shot.


What I liked best of my 45 ACP revolvers was playing around experimenting with numerous 45 cal molds. I only had one from a now discontinued Lee mold that disappointed me.




OMG!! Cutting down the barrel length on perhaps one S&W's best production guns. Doing so will likely result in a lynching party of Smith Wesson admirers and collectors at your front door!! Kidding aside I've considered it as well but have since accumulated better 4 inch carry guns.

Not a Model 1955 but a Model 25-2. It was cut to 3.5” when I got it and I had the 4.25” barrel put in place. It is great with the Lyman 453423 or the SAECO 453.

Kevin

[ddixie884]

I have always wanted a 3.5" 25-2. I have a 2 5/8" that is probably a Jovino, a 4" with a de-horned hammer and a 1950 target trimmed to 5". I also have several Colt 17s including one of the original chopped 2.5" with the tubing cutter front sight. I also have 4 or 5 M-625s from 3" to 5". That is a really nice gun you have............

[Jtarm]

Not a Model 1955 but a Model 25-2. It was cut to 3.5” when I got it and I had the 4.25” barrel put in place. It is great with the Lyman 453423 or the SAECO 453.

Kevin

I have to wipe the drool from my chin every time you post a picture of that gun.

[StrawHat]

I have always wanted a 3.5" 25-2. I have a 2 5/8" that is probably a Jovino, a 4" with a de-horned hammer and a 1950 target trimmed to 5". I also have several Colt 17s including one of the original chopped 2.5" with the tubing cutter front sight. I also have 4 or 5 M-625s from 3" to 5". That is a really nice gun you have............

I have to wipe the drool from my chin every time you post a picture of that gun.

As many members know, I am fond of the S&W ACP revolver and have quite a few of them. I also like a 4” barreled N frame so more than a few of my ACP revolvers are custom built to accommodate my likes. The first one was a S&W Model 1917. I cut that barrel to 4” and soldered a penny or nickel to the end for a front sight. I have built and sold many of that style since then. I actually carried one when I wore a badge back in the previous century. I also built a Model 28-2 into a 45 ACP revolver, long before the idea of the Mountain Gun was designed in Springfield. Still have that one. Long after I turned in my badge, S&W introduced, in my opinion, the ultimate LEO revolver, the Model 22-4! A 4”, tapered barrel, 45 ACP with fixed sights and a reinforced ejector rod. Perfection! And of course a Model 625-6 Mountain revolver.

And various other Models, 25-2, 1950 Target, 1950 Army, 1955, 1917 Army, 1917 Commercial, all are wonderful and interesting to own, shoot, and study.

If you have questions, please either start another thread or pm me. I have caused this thread to drift too far already.

Kevin

[murf205]

I have three lyman 45 caliber moulds. 452460, 454424 and 452423. I am looking for loads and comments on which mould will provide me with a decent range load to punch holes with my S&W Model 25. I also have three variations of the Model 1917, one S&W, one Colt and one Brazilian contract.

Also I could use some advice on how to check throat on a revolver. I recently acquired the above 45s and have never fired any of them. So what I am getting at is that I do not know much about loading cast for the 45acp. I have loaded quite a bit of 38 special and have good luck with lyman 358311 in that round but I have not really worried about the throat on my Ruger Security six when shooting it.

Thank you for any information.

Clark

The advice on buying pin gages is solid. I buy them at the extremes of caliber. In other words if you are in the 45 business, I would buy pins from .450 to .456. Make sure you clean the cylinder throats and run a patch of light viscosity gun oil in them and size your cast boolits to the size you determine the throats to be, since that's the size they are going to exit the cylinder. Any larger will just raise pressure needlessly and any that are very much smaller will cause tipping when they enter the forcing cone of the barrel. As has been stated, there is no need to run your ammo to +p since the 45 will do whatever you want to at standard pressure levels. Bullseye is a great powder but I have had really good luck with Accurate #5 and std primers.Attachment 313697 I have had good luck with this Accurate Molds mold. Mine drops exactly at 453 grs when cast from range lead +2% tin and either lubed or powder coated, there is nary a trace of lead when sized to.4515 for my guns ..452 throats. It has a meplate flat enough to give a good sharp imprint in targets and also would make a good hunting boolit, especially at 45 ACP ranges. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. Murf

[NuJudge]

I bought a S&W Model 25-2. I was told that its cylinder throats measured .454". I bought a group of pin gauges, and in 3 shot holes it would pass a .455" pin, and in the other 3 it would pass a .456" pin.

I have tried a couple .452" cast bullets, with poor results. I tried a .452" swaged hollow based SWC with decent results:
https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/bulletselection

I bought several .455" custom molds to cast with this summer.

CDD

[murf205]

Early 25-2's and those into the 70's were famous for big cylinder throats. At one time, I've been told that Smith and Wesson would replace the cylinder with a more appropriate diameter, which to them is .451. My 25-2 is a 1988 gun and it is a .451 gun. I size to that diameter and have no problems.

[Gray Fox]

I just traded into a 1917 Smith that a smith years ago had cut to 3.5" and installed a ramp front sight and squared up the v-notch rear before polishing and doing a nice blue job. He also did a beautiful job case coloring the trigger and hammer. The chambers and barrel look new. I was surprised as a measured .452 slug will not drop through the chambers.

I also have a nice Brazilian that was among the first produced that is basically a model 1917 commercial gun. Its chambers are larger. I got some .454 RNFP boolits from Bear Creek and they drop right through. With my order he sent along a few shallow HP 230 grain RN with a hollow base that he said should expand to fit the bore. I haven't tried them yet.

I have recently acquired an '82 6.5" 25-2 and an '80 6.5" 25-5 (.45 Colt) that both need the .454 boolits. Both have pinned barrels and I'm hoping for good things from them. GF

[StrawHat]

Time to kick this thread in the pants and hear more thoughts on what the OP was asking. Who has data using newish powders and the old Lyman 452460, 454424 or 452423? I still use Bullseye or Unique but have been using this revolver a bit more.



A modern version of the S&W Model 1950 Army revolver.

Kevin

[gwpercle]

Let me throw in my two cents ... the 45 acp in both semi-auto and revolver is one of my favorite ... the first 45 acp I ever shot was a revolver and the most accurate 45 acp I now own is a revolver ... my Gold Cup and AMT Hardballer are both green with envy.
Pet Loads :
Lyman 452460 , 200 gr. cast SWC - sized .452"
#1 Pet Load - 5.3 grs. Unique @ 760 fps
#2 Pet Load - 5.0 grs. Unique @ 726 fps

There have been times when Unique wasn't available ...
the following are Pet Target Loads with other powders that can stand in nicely for when Unique is unavailable .

4.0 grs. 700X @ 824 fps
4.2 grs. Red Dot @ 794 fps
4.0 grs TiteGroup @ 860 fps
4.7 grs AA #2 @ 832 fps
4.5 grs. Bullseye ... a lot of shooters call Bullseye #1 pet load powder
4.5 grs. W231 / HP38 @ 808 fps
The above are standard pressure target loads just the thing for paper punching and tin can shooting ... one of them should shoot accurately in your gun .
Gary

[Jtarm]

Handloader #306 Pet Loads, .45AR +P shows a max of 6.5 grains Unique under the 452423.

959 FPS from a 6.5” 1955.

[Jtarm]

Time to kick this thread in the pants and hear more thoughts on what the OP was asking. Who has data using newish powders and the old Lyman 452460, 454424 or 452423? I still use Bullseye or Unique but have been using this revolver a bit more.



A modern version of the S&W Model 1950 Army revolver.

Kevin

Universal is a good substitute for Unique. Just about grain-for-grain.

I try to get about 900-1000 FPS from my big bore revolvers with a big-meplat bullet.

I’ve gotten pretty good results with HS-6 and Power Pistol in .44 Special & 10mm, but I suspect they’re a bit slow in .45 AR.

[Outpost75]

WST is a good alternative to 231, TiteGroup or Bullseye. Meters well. Very clean burning.

If your Star, Phelps or Dillon machine is already set to meter a safe charge with Bullseye, you can refill the powder hopper with WST and no adjustment is needed.

In .45 Auto Rim I load 4.2 grains with any bullet from 200-265 grains. The 4.2 grain charge was my standard .45 ACP wadcutter load with H&G 68 for Bullseye shooting.