Looking for input on 45 ACP in S&W 1917 and Model 25

[Crlrca]

I have three lyman 45 caliber moulds. 452460, 454424 and 452423. I am looking for loads and comments on which mould will provide me with a decent range load to punch holes with my S&W Model 25. I also have three variations of the Model 1917, one S&W, one Colt and one Brazilian contract.

Also I could use some advice on how to check throat on a revolver. I recently acquired the above 45s and have never fired any of them. So what I am getting at is that I do not know much about loading cast for the 45acp. I have loaded quite a bit of 38 special and have good luck with lyman 358311 in that round but I have not really worried about the throat on my Ruger Security six when shooting it.

Thank you for any information.

Clark

[35remington]

Beware of heavier load data, like the often seen 7.5 grains of Unique with the 452423 or 454424. Either bullet is much too heavy in weight with that charge of Unique. The 17 is considered to be somewhat more prudently loaded with less powder than the 25, but neither will, in my opinion, take the charges some recommend.

Remind yourself both bullets take more case space than 230's normally used in 45 ACP and Auto Rim, and Plus P is reached with lighter charges of Unique and 230's than some are using with the much heavier SWC's you are have. Ergo.....some commonly "recommended" charges for Unique (and other powders) are +P++ when loaded with the heavy SWC's in these revolvers. As in......not advised. In the 17 I would stay below about 5.8 grains Unique with the heavier bullets, especially absent a chronograph. With a chronograph I wouldn't exceed much over 820 fps or so in a 17. Some of these revolvers can be rather "extra" old.

Since the 452423 is closest to standard weight that may hit closest to the fixed sights of your revolver. Nevertheless I have had best accuracy results with the 452460. A nice heavy wide meplat bullet does have its appeal for game and self defense and the latter two would be my choice for that if you can get them to shoot.

Check throats with plug gauges or a sized bullet. Calipers will get you sorta in the ballpark, but are not ideal.

[Outpost75]

In my 1917 and. 45 Hand Ejector Model of 1950 Military I load 4.2 grains of Bullseye across the board with any bullet from 200-255 grains. Pleasant and accurate.

If you intend to load +P .45 ACP in a revolver buy a Ruger convertible Blackhawk. The S&W 25 will not stand up to a steady diet of +P.

[StrawHat]

I get the best results from my 25-2 by using loads that slightly exceed factory velocities. I use the 452423 boolit a lot but also a couple of others in the same weight. (So far my favorite is the SAECO 453 but you did not ask). 454424 is a close second. The loads written by Keith, have destroyed more than a couple of the 1917 S&W revolvers. I do not have problems with them in the 25-2. Others do. I find the alloy for the ACP revolves does need to be a bit harder than I normally use to better grab the rifling.

[Crlrca]

Thank you for the input. I do not care to load +p rounds as I will use these guns as fun paper shooters. I just enjoy casting and am looking to expand my experience.
crl

[GSM]

Check the cylinder dimensions on the Model 25. 0.455"+ is not uncommon in the older models. Matching or slightly exceeding the cylinder dimensions can give respectable results in the 25.

[stu1ritter]

Pin gauges, made by Vermont Gage, which are available from Amazon and run about $2.50 each. Get the minus variety so that the .455 gauge is .4548 (-.0002). I just purchased a 1917 and it has .455 throats. From what I understand, most 1917's are near that size. I bought .456, .455, .454 and .453. A caliper is pretty useless unless you have verified it against a micrometer. I have three of them and in this measuring range, none of them (Mitutoyo, Helios and Harbor Freight) are within a thou of the micrometer (Mitutoyo .00005 accurate).
Stu

[Larry Gibson]

I always found a standard 45 ACP load using a hard 452460 over 5 gr Bullseye gave the best accuracy out of numerous M25s & M1917s (Colt and S&W) I had over the years. COWWs +2% tin WQ'd works fine for an alloy. The barrels almost always have .451 - .452 barrels with relatively shallow rifling. That's why a harder cast 452460 sized at .452 is best. Most will have larger throats and I've always had worse accuracy with larger sized bullets to fit the throat. I use this load in my M1917/25 (a M1917 with a M25 barrel on it) and it shoots 1 - 1 1/2" 12 shot groups at 25 yards......used to any way when my eyes were good..........

Larry Gibson

Attachment 122201

[Love Life]

I have recently completed testing the 453423 235 gr SWC in the 45 acp and Model 25-2 revolver. I also tested 200 gr rn cast and 230 gr rn cast.

My throats are .455 and I size my boolits to .452. They are range scrap and I water quench them after baking on my bullet coating. All the boolits are accurate and give no leading. I've never been one to size to throat dimensions so I can't really help you there. I just size .001-.002 over bore and call it good. It works for me.

To address the 453423 specifically: I loaded up to the max load of 7.5 gr Unique and it is quite stout. My currentish N-frame ate them up, but I sure wouldn't want to feed them to your older revolvers. I didn't see any immediately noticeable pressure signs, but I ended up backing down the load a bit from there. That boolit over a moderate dose of bullseye is the bee's knees. I have chamfered chambers so the boolit actualy fead quite well using moon clips and 45 acp brass.

The revolver also enjoys a 230 gr RN bullet. I would be looking hard at the Lee RN 6 cavity...might be the 2r as it's been awhile since I cast any of them. It's a cheap mould that will rain useable bullets.

[GLL]

I use the 454423 HP in AutoRim brass for both 1917 and Model 25 .





Jerry

[azrednek]

In my 1917 and. 45 Hand Ejector Model of 1950 Military I load 4.2 grains of Bullseye across the board with any bullet from 200-255 grains. Pleasant and accurate.

I load nearly the same in my Brazilian contract and 25-2 although I rarely shoot anything above 230 grs. My most accurate combo is 4.0 Bullseye and a 200 gr slug. I've tried various 200gr molds and they all seem to shoot the same. The 225gr SAECO button nosed wadcutter with either 4.0 or 4.5 BE was a close second. For some unknown reason the SAECO wadcutter shoots more accurately for me out of Auto Rim brass than it does out of ACP brass on moon clips.

If you intend to load +P .45 ACP in a revolver buy a Ruger convertible Blackhawk. The S&W 25 will not stand up to a steady diet of +P.

Wholeheartedly agree!! You especially don't want to run warm loads in your Brazilian revolver. No reason to heat things up to punch holes in paper. As previously stated. A 230 gr slug will follow the sights out to about 25 yards on a 1917. I shoot tighter clusters using only 4.0 grs of Bullseye. Increasing the load to 5.0, my group opens up slightly on both of my S&W 45ACP revolvers.

I've run some very hot 45 ACP loads in my Ruger Convertible but feared mixing the handloads up at a later date and possibly damaging my revolvers or 1911. Since then I keep my Ruger-only loads in 45 Colt.


About 10 years ago I heated things up in my 25-2 for what turned out to be an unsuccessful Javalina hunt. Been a few years and my memory is as they say "it ain't what it used to be". I believe it was a 230 gr casting with 5.5 Bullseye. Accuracy suffered slightly on paper but it was still tight enough I felt confident with it for hunting. I do recall having some sticky extractions at the range with the hotter load.

[Char-Gar]

Over the years I have owned quite a few Smith and Wesson and Colt sixguns chambered for 45 ACP. Below is some eye candy of the ones I have left.

Here is what I have learned from the years of shooting and loading these things.

1. Up until the early 1980's Smith and Wesson charge hole throats usually ran about .455 - .456. Colt 1917 throats were about the same or could be .001 larger.

2. You don't want to exceed standard pressure for the 45 ACP in any Pre-war sixgun, ever. You can hot rod the Post-war Smiths if you are so bent, but don't do it in the guns made before the war. They won't last long if you do.

3. ACWW is plenty hard enough alloy for these sixguns and bullet in the 230 - 240 grain range will pretty well shoot to the sights.

4. I like 4.2/Bulleye in the pre-war guns and 4.5/Bulleye in the post war gun.

5. A hot rod load for 452423 in post-war guns is 7.5/Unique. This runs 950 fs in my chopped 4" 1955 Target Model and 1,050 fps in a 6.5" bbl version of the same sixgun.

6. In general you will get better accuracy with Auto Rim brass, but ACP brass in clips will do.

7. Sizing diameter will vary with your firearm, alloy hardness and bullet design, but either .452 or .454 will make you happy. You will just have to play with those numbers.

A good post-war Smith and Wesson DA in 45 ACP will make a fine outdoorsman's firearm, but the pre-war sixguns should be considered historic range toys not to be abused.

[Love Life]

Char-Gar: Every time I see your cut down 1955 Target Model, I consider having the same done to mine. Now I'm a sucker for a 6 1/2 inch barreled N-Frame, but that 4 inch barrel sure does look mighty handy. Only problem is that by the time I got it cut I would be money ahead to just sell it and buy a 45 Colt mountain gun.

[Char-Gar]

It is as handy as it looks and it came to me already with the barrel bobbed. It needed a little work to get it up to snuff, but when done it is a dandy.

[35remington]

Given I get 975 fps with the 452423 and 6.8 Unique in my 5" 625-3, my advising against 7.5 grains has practical foundation. This is well beyond plus P, and even given that my revolver is superior to the 25 in terms of metallurgy I would not shoot such a load as that would be well beyond the pressure the relatively thin walled cylinders are specc'd for.

Iterations of the 452432 have been known to vary a bit. If you don't know what speed your loads are getting "max" charges for these revolver should not be attempted.

Casting one's eye upon Plus P specs (950 with a 230) will give you a good idea of the prudency of loading the revolvers to higher speeds with heavier bullets. My 6.8/452423 load is likely past that a bit already, both as to velocity and pressure.

If the revolver is holding up under a lot of shooting, the only way to find out is to do a lot of shooting. Your dime, your body and your decision.

A relevant factor in my 625-3 may be the .4515" cylinder throats.

[Char-Gar]

I also have a 5" 625 made in 1990 and it has charge hole throats of .453. I use it to shoot bowling pin matches with 452423 over 4.5/Bulleye. It will clear a pin off the table with any fair hit.

The 7.5/Unique/425423 is used in my chopped 1955 Target model in the field. At the range plinking or informal target shooting, I use the above load of 4.5/Bulleye. I have no idea how long the pistol will last with 7.5/Unique, but it has been going strong for me since 1982.

I do know the 7.5/Unique will tear up a Colt 1917 with the heavier 454424 Keith Bullet. Skelton cracked the cylinder of his with this load and rebarreled and recylindered it to 44 Special. I owned the revolver in the 44 Special configuration for a time. Skeeter sold it down river and it ended up in my hands for a while.

[azrednek]

6. In general you will get better accuracy with Auto Rim brass, but ACP brass in clips will do.


7. Sizing diameter will vary with your firearm, alloy hardness and bullet design, but either .452 or .454 will make you happy. You will just have to play with those numbers.

A good post-war Smith and Wesson DA in 45 ACP will make a fine outdoorsman's firearm, but the pre-war sixguns should be considered historic range toys not to be abused.

It appears as though Char-Gar and others have considerably more experience with it than me. My shot to shot accuracy using ACP brass on moon clips seems to run close to Auto Rim brass with the exception I noted previously using the SAECO button nosed wadcutter. I do make an effort to segregate my ACP by headstamps by type or manufacture on moon clips. Mixing the headstamps accuracy suffers slightly. I've only loaded Remington brand AR brass, possibly better over-all results are obtained using Starline. I'm simply speculating that the improved results with the button nosed wadcutter in AR brass may have something to do with the deep seated slug. There is not much room for a powder charge in ACP brass and a small charge of Bullseye or Unique is compressed slightly.




A Brazilian contract I traded away shot better for me with .454 sized slugs or jacketed. I'm assuming it may have something to do with wear. The one I currently have shoots considerably better with .452. Of coarse you'll never know until you slug your bore and try both.

Char-Gar is dead on what he says about the pre-war and the Brazilian contract in particular. Be kind to it and it will likely out last you. I use Brazilian as a plinker keeping the loads mild using it mostly for double action practice. For more serious target work I use my 1955 Target model and it is probably the most accurate revolver I own.


For years of having an abundant supply of large tractor trailer type wheel weights. My 45 cal alloy was strictly clip-ons. Maybe adding a tad of tin if I wasn't filling the mold satisfactorily. My last cache of 45 auto castings were a 50/50 mix of clip-ons and pure. Accuracy fell of a bit but I believe it is more likely due to failing eyesight. Seems like on or about birthday # 60 my all handgun shooting is on a steady decline. Sweet thing about the mild 45 ACP loads is I can shoot them for hours without the fatigue and flinching with their gentle recoil. None of my business really what somebody does with their own property. My opinion (for what it is worth) is you will be happier with the results shooting on the mild side. If you do as I did get the urge to hunt with a 45 ACP revolver. Char-Gars or any of the suggested loads with the 45423 or as I did with SAECO's gas checked version will do the trick on small and medium game. Perfect Yote medicine. On my unsuccessful Javalina hunt. One of our group claimed his Javy dropped immediately using store-bought 45423's. launched from a 2nd generation Colt. Been to many years to recall his 45 Colt powder charge. The slug blew clean through at what he claimed was a 50 yard shot.


What I liked best of my 45 ACP revolvers was playing around experimenting with numerous 45 cal molds. I only had one from a now discontinued Lee mold that disappointed me.

Char-Gar: Every time I see your cut down 1955 Target Model, I consider having the same done to mine. .

OMG!! Cutting down the barrel length on perhaps one S&W's best production guns. Doing so will likely result in a lynching party of Smith Wesson admirers and collectors at your front door!! Kidding aside I've considered it as well but have since accumulated better 4 inch carry guns.

[enfieldphile]

1917 (Anisiston Arsenel WWII rebuild, barrel replaced & entire gun parked)
1937 Brazilain (actual Flat-top 1937 frame, not one which used a left over, round-top 1917 frame)
5" model of 1989, full lug barrel
1955 Target, 6" (1982 production)

I use 5.5 of Herco in all of them, w/ a 231 grain cast TC Boolit. easy on the hand and easy on the gun!

[azrednek]

I use 5.5 of Herco in all of them, w/ a 231 grain cast TC Boolit. easy on the hand and easy on the gun!

I've had mixed results using Herco in 45 ACP but it is my hands down favorite for 45 Colt and 44 Special. I also use Herco for mild to medium 41 mag.

[enfieldphile]

I switched to Herco 'bout 30 years ago for all cast revolver and .45 ACP semi-auto loads in: .38, .357, .44 special, .44 mag., .45 AR .45 Colt. Elmer Keith tells us Unique (thought it can give amazing accuracy) can burn minute bits from lead from the base of PB cast. A slower powder will work better in many cases.

I've had mixed results using Herco in 45 ACP but it is my hands down favorite for 45 Colt and 44 Special. I also use Herco for mild to medium 41 mag.