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Thread: Lubing a minié bullet

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Should be put in context. At that time, Forgett was likely trying to increase market interest in muzzleloading given that Navy Arms (Forgett) was the leader in the re-birth of interest in muzzleloaders and muzzleloader hunting.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master ColColt's Avatar
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    At the time I met him I had just bought one of his 58 cal Zouaves and was asking him about how much powder could safely be put in the barrel. He told me as long as there was still enough room to seat the bullet it was safe. I didn't take that to heart, naturally. I did get up to 140 gr before I called it quits. When the hammer re-cocked itself I knew that was a far as I needed to go.
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Just wondering fouronesix where your info comes from?

    Thanks Aaron

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by joatmon View Post
    Just wondering fouronesix where your info comes from?

    Thanks Aaron
    Specifically what info or facts are in question?

    The story by Forgett is in print form for anyone to read. I have it in hand (have had it since 1975) and I can read. The Navy Arms company history is well known and can be found in many sources.

    The Africa info is based on my first hand experiences in Africa, including dangerous game hunting and dealing directly with other hunters, government officials, locals, farmers/ranchers/game preserve operators and poachers. Plus the experiences of PH friends who live there and whose families have lived there for generations.

    If those info sources are not acceptable, you'll have to do the research independently and spend no small amount of time and effort to gain the direct experience.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColColt View Post
    At the time I met him I had just bought one of his 58 cal Zouaves and was asking him about how much powder could safely be put in the barrel. He told me as long as there was still enough room to seat the bullet it was safe. I didn't take that to heart, naturally. I did get up to 140 gr before I called it quits. When the hammer re-cocked itself I knew that was a far as I needed to go.
    I'd say 140 gr is a little much for any kind of .577-58 musket. Those type charges are best left to thick barrel wall muzzleloaders like the heavy "Hawken" style guns shooting a specially designed heavy skirt Minié or solid base conical- not any kind of reproduction musket or rifled musket. I don't know what the Italian proof loads were for the muskets Navy Arms was selling- but I'll guarantee they weren't even close to the "fill the bore if you like" statement! They may have been something like a double charge (120-140 gr) of BP under a heavy bullet of some kind or double charge under possibly two bullets???

    As to the OP- heavy loads are not what the muskets were or are intended to shoot and won't shoot them very well anyway. They are capable of fine accuracy IF they are loaded to reasonable levels- like a hollow base pure lead Minié of good design, lubed with a soft lube, sized from bore diameter to no smaller than .002" less than bore diameter, over a charge of about 50-55 gr FF blackpowder. Heavy charges will yield heavy recoil, may damage the gun, will foul more quickly, may strip the Minié right through the first few inches of the shallow rifling and will blow the skirt.

  6. #26
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    Not trying to disagree, wish I'd put the question in a PM. It's hard to ask a question on line and make it come out right for me sometimes. I was wondering about the 458mag part and the hippo part mostly.I like to read about such and was just looking for a source.

    Thanks Again Aaron

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by joatmon View Post
    Not trying to disagree, wish I'd put the question in a PM. It's hard to ask a question on line and make it come out right for me sometimes. I was wondering about the 458mag part and the hippo part mostly.I like to read about such and was just looking for a source.

    Thanks Again Aaron
    No problem. Thread drift for sure but the subject was started and needed addressing.

    The 458 was used to kill the elephant. The Forgett story goes something like this. He shot the elephant aiming for a side brain shot. He expected the animal to drop at the shot but when the smoke cleared, the elephant was wheeling around and came on a charge. One of the backup gunners (apparently there were 2) fired using a 458 and the elephant dropped. They dug the muzzleloader bullet out of the skull or head and discovered it had penetrated 15" of porous bone. Then went on to insinuate- "if" this, that or the other would have happened the muzzleloader "would have" been perfectly suited for killing an elephant… OK??? But, 15" penetration on a correctly placed side brain shot would have easily penetrated the brain and the animal would have gone straight down. Reading between the lines I can only assume the shot was not correct and the bullet ended up somewhere in the head. Additionally, in the caption accompanying the 2 photos of the dead bull, it states the bull weighed about 8 tons. Yet another probably gross embellishment or intentional false statement simply to enhance the story. Those photos show an average bull of not much age with obviously narrow head and very little heavy bone definition in the skull. Probably in the range of half the weight stated…. at most 8000-9000 lbs…. not the 8 tons (16000 lbs) as printed in the caption.

    Kind of the same scenario with the shot on the hippo. The story mentioned "stalking" and waiting for the shot. Well, normally the pods are spotted from a distance. Hippos usually spend the entire daylight in deeper water pools or on adjacent sandbars in rivers during the day. Then what little "stalking" is done amounts to sneaking or crawling up to the river bank edge overlooking the pod. Then waiting for ID of a good bull and setting up for a good shot to the brain from a solid rest above the hippo. That first shot was obviously poor and required an unknown number of follow up shots to finish the job.

    What some PHs and "video ranger hunters" do these days for "enhancing" the danger or glamour of hippo hunting is to try to catch them on land as they return to the water after feeding all night. They usually return to the water before sun up each morning. Given the size and nature of hippos on land (where they feel vulnerable) they are usually defensive and many times charge, so provide a good "show" for the videos or later stories. The ethical PHs I know have no interest in such contrived stunts.

  8. #28
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    Thanks for the info! Having never hunted Africa I do read a lot about it and think 'ONE DAY' but we'll see.

    Thanks Aaron

  9. #29
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by joatmon View Post
    Thanks for the info! Having never hunted Africa I do read a lot about it and think 'ONE DAY' but we'll see.

    Thanks Aaron
    Absolutely keep it in mind. Africa is not for everyone and the type of hunting there varies tremendously. Do the homework and dig deeper than the sales pitches. I've noticed that it does continue to get more and more expensive if for no other reason than continued supply and demand forces. Politically, each country and region seem in continual flux. The trends seem more and more restrictive, so the supply-demand principle keeps nudging prices higher and higher. Some hunts, in say Namibia or much of South Africa, are relatively straight forward, controlled and well organized. Some areas/concessions in a few countries are fairly remote and very large, can include many unknowns and are better suited to one wanting a little more "adventure". Most hunters who go for a "once in a lifetime" experience, who have a good trip, start planning how to pay for the next "once in a lifetime" trip before they even leave Africa.

    FYI- One Africa hunt video I recommend is by Rainer Josch in Tanzania. I have little use for most hunting videos these days, but this one is excellent. It was filmed in 2010 and follows 3 buffalo hunters. Available through safari press. "Buffalo Hunters, the Mountain Challenge- Part 1". There is another similar one by Josch done a couple of years earlier, but IMO, not as good as this one. Here's a link to Hatari Productions site- then click on the above mentioned 5 minute trailer.
    http://www.hatariproductions.com/index.php?id=3
    Last edited by fouronesix; 11-29-2014 at 02:14 PM.

  10. #30
    Boolit Buddy heelerau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuncaninFrance View Post
    I have just purchase a Pedersoli 2 band Enfield in .557" and intend to shoot minié bullets. Some videos on YouTube show the hollow base being filled with lube/grease before loading, others load as cast with a lube coating in the grooves.
    I don't see the need to fill the cavity but, as always, there will be pros & cons.......What do you think?
    Mate I just dip the minnie bullets into a standard British Army mix of 5 parts beeswax to 1 of unsalted lard by volume. You want a bullet that is just about bore size, a nice slip fit, if it has a light skirt as some of the lee minnie bullets are, a charge of about 55 grains of FFg black, so you don't rupture the skirt, if you are using a heavy skirted bullet I use 75 grains of FFg black. I don't put lube into the base cavity, and I run the freshly greased bullets through a lube size die just to get the excess lube off. Off the bench at 50 yds using the latter load I can regularly shoot a 98 on a 50yd pistol target. My PH Navy 2 bander has been bedded and the lock tuned about 30 odd years ago.

    Cheers and good luck

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  11. #31
    Boolit Bub
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    In regard to the comment about filling the bore with powder; back in the time frame of the 60-70's it was generally believed that there was a theoretical maximum of powder that would burn within the barrel and the unburned surplus would be expelled out the muzzle. It was therefor thought that you couldn't over charge a musket causing the barrel to burst so long as you had a single projectile that was seated on the powder column. Of course, any air gap between the bullet and the powder was going to potentially ring the barrel or cause a barrel burst. I don't know of any testing that has been done to substantiate the theory other than a couple of articles in Muzzle Blasts that touched on it. Love to know what you-all think.

  12. #32
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    I saw an experiment done on a GM barrel breech plugged both ends of a 36" barrel 50 caliber filled to max with 3ffg, drilled flash hole with a fuse for firing. Many years ago. EVERY bit of pressure went out the vent.

    This was done before the barrel went into production. No internet , No computer calculations (what's a computer remember the age) The barrel measured the same after firing as before.

    Location was Wonalancet NH part of Tamworth NH

  13. #33
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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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