Lubing a minié bullet

[DuncaninFrance]

I have just purchase a Pedersoli 2 band Enfield in .557" and intend to shoot minié bullets. Some videos on YouTube show the hollow base being filled with lube/grease before loading, others load as cast with a lube coating in the grooves.
I don't see the need to fill the cavity but, as always, there will be pros & cons.......What do you think?

[GoodOlBoy]

I have almost no front stuffer experience, however, I do have experience loading front stuffer bullets (minnie's, Maxi's, and REAL's) into 45-70 hulls over black powder. In my experience in this capacity only I have done the following with them.

Hand lubed in grooves only, over a lubed pillow ticking patch - Decent accuracy, a messy proposition for the hands.
Pan lubed in grooves and base filled, over a lubed pillow ticking patch - Decent accuracy, but used alot of lube (relatively speaking) and didn't see alot of difference. Up side is hands weren't a mess for the process.
Hand lubed in grooves only, sitting over a grease "cookie" and a lubed pillow ticking patch - Good accuracy, and fouling was a bit easier to scrub out. Again uses relatively alot of lube because of the grease "cookie"
Tumble Lubed in LLA, and a lubed pillow ticking patch - Good accuracy, easy process.
Tumble Lubed in 45-45-10, and a lubed pillow ticking patch - Good accuracy, again easy process.

Some may ask about why the lube pillow ticking patch in BP cartridge. I did this ANY time I was combining black powder and a hollow base bullet just for my own sanity so I KNEW there was no space in the cartridge case. I have been told what I did was completely pointless, and I have been told it wasn't. For me it was like a safety blanket or a teddy bear. It was a bit of reassurnce no matter what side of the fence I was on.

I am eager to see what the front stuffer guys have in advice on this one since they have all the real experience in this department, and as always I am hoping Santa drops a front stuffer off at my place this Christmas!

GoodOlBoy

[Harry O]

My experience has been with hollow-base 41 Long Colt bullets -- probably more than 10,000 so far. Filling the base with lube is less accurate than filling the lube grooves in the side. You can pan lube hollow-base bullets. As long as the base is completely filled out, you will not get lube in the hollow-base before it hardens.

[btroj]

Filling the base isn't needed. I just dipped the bands in a mix of beeswax and Crisco. Messy but it worked quite well.

[Zouave 58]

Back in the day when I was a skirmish shooter we used to grease the grooves with 2/3 beeswax 1/3 beef suet and fill the cavity with crisco. The crisco is unnecessary if you swab between shots. The purpose of the grease groove lube is to limit leading and the purpose of the crisco is to keep the fouling soft. I found a small but significant increase in accuracy in one of my muskets with the crisco in the base due to what I believe is a hydraulic effect forcing the minnie skirt to uniformly expand into the bore if the minnie starts out way undersized. The closer one can get to a minnie sized to just slip fit in the bore the better the accuracy seems to be.

[dromia]

I just get a dollop of udder cream on the boolit before loading.

[beroen]

Bore butter easy peazy

[curator]

The Enfield rifle was designed to shoot a .545 smooth-sided Pritchet bullet paper patched up to .577 and dipped in bee's wax lube. There was a wooden plug in the base cavity to facilitate expansion into the grooves. Most American (Union) minie' bullets were swaged from pure lead and lightly coated with various thin waxes. This "coating" was to prevent oxidation in storage, not to prevent leading. The grooves on the bullet's sides were referred to as "scrapers" and were not filled with lube. When I can wipe the bore with a damp patch after each shot, I have found the Lee tumble lube alone to work very well. When several shots are expected and no time to wipe the bore between, I fill the base with a 50/50 bee's wax/lard (or Crisco) lube and blast away. The extra lube keeps the fouling soft so the gun can be reloaded repeatedly without cleaning but is a bit messy. Bare-sided and unlubed minie' bullets will NOT lead your bore using black powder contrary to conventional "wisdom." Generally speaking, my 3-groove Springfield and Enfield rifles shoot a bit more accurately with little to no lube. Recently switching to Olde Eynsford 1.5 Fg, I am able to shoot 60 grain bare-bullet charges 10 to 12 times without wiping the bore because it burns so much cleaner than the standard Goex FFg I had been using.

[carbine]

For what it is worth, the N-SSA shoots a fair number of Minies each year. Many folks use the Red Capplug tubes, they measure the powder, out it in the tube, seal it with the bare minie, then using the tube, dunk it into melted lube. Nothing goes into the base. There are other methods, your milage may vary

[Nobade]

I dip lube mine with gatofeo #1 and let 'em dry. 25 or more shots are easy without wiping the bore. Nothing in the base.

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Duncan, (I assume you mean .577)
I think most any lube will work including any of the recipes for dip lube. Much of the idea of Minié lube is to keep fouling soft for repeated loading and firing without having to swab between shots. No problem trying various combinations to see what works best for you. Most of the time I just place an open container of Crisco on the bench and apply to the outside of the ball with my fingers. During really hot weather I use a similar lube that is stiffer and is a simple mix of beeswax and Crisco.

Most of the original "arsenal" type lubes for Miniés I see reference to are some combination of lard (tallow) and beeswax.

[jonk]

I am a skirmisher and shoot probably a thousand minies a year. Some of my guns shoot better with a lubed base, some not; but in all cases I lube the sides with a good black powder lube, either SPG or 50/50 beeswax/crisco. Personally I use an RCBS lube sizer. RCBS doesn't make dies in the proper diameter, but S and S firearms does, as does Lodgewood Mfg.

Do note, that whatever method you choose, you must use dead soft lead, and size your bullets 1-2/1000" under bore diameter. Don't assume that because it's a .58 musket that a .575 Lyman mold will get you going. You really need a plug gauge, or to slug the bore. On a musket, you can do this by taking an oversized Minie, tapping it in to start with a hammer, then pulling out by the nose with pliers, and measure the base.

Now that you have the gun, next step is to figure that out and buy a mold that is suitable. I find that with my Enfield, it likes the RCBS Hodgdon .580, sized to .577, over either 48 gr of 3F powder or 55 gr of 2F powder.

[bedbugbilly]

Try different lube methods and see what works best for you. I've shot rifled-musket for 50+ years and used to shoot N-SSA years ago. All I've ever done is use Crisco in the base and never had a problem. Years ago, I used heavy paper/light cardboard tubes for pre-measured charges and then inserted the minie ball in upside down. Then things got "high tech" and plastic loading tubes started showing up.

Everyone has their own methods of lubing - I always found just a dab of Crico int he base was a whole lot less messy than trying to remove a minie lubed in the grooves on the skirmish line where you were shooting a number of rounds for a timed event. In the end, YMMV but don't "over think" it. The purpose of the lube is to keep the fouling soft in order to make multiple shots without a problem in getting loading another round.

Good luck and enjoy that new rifle!

[fouronesix]

Forgot to mention. If you haven't purchased a mold yet, as others have said, pay attention to the design and diameter. If your bore is close to .577... that is a plus as it will allow for more options for a correct sized Minié. I have tried the Lee designs but they never shot very well. I've had much better results with the RCBS N-S design and the more traditional Lyman.

[Motor]

Bore butter easy peazy

Like the post I quoted, I coat them with bore butter.

I have also used Lee's A-Lox lube. I do the 50cal. 250gr REAL bullet with it and it works just fine. I shoot these from a side lock long gun and sized to .501" from a .500 S&W revolver.

[ColColt]

I'd be buying them minies rather than cast for them. U have an old 70's Navy Arms Zouave 58 cal and can tell you straight up casting those big 510 gr mini balls(conical really) is no fun. You have to get the cherry as got or hotter than the mould before the inside of the skirt will fill out and not produce voids and wrinkles. A real PITA to cast those bullets.

[smilin jack]

ColColt, I agree the Minnie mold (Lyman 577611) is hard to cast with but can be done with plenty of work. Mine throws 510 grain slugs.
I turn up the Lee electric pot full hot. There is a DIY extension, holding the pot about 2 inches higher than stock above the base plate. This allows the hollow base plug and mold to slide under the pouring spigot on the bottom of the pot. The pour spigot hole has been slightly enlarged to speed the flow. This may be the best improvement.
10 pounds of pure lead sweetened with a large wheel weight seems to help fill out the mold. The slugs still mushroom OK for hunting. One cow elk and one buck have fallen to the Navy Arms Hawken Hunter with a nice charge of Goex 3fff.
I put a 1/8" lubed felt wad over the powder, lube the minnie grooves and base with Bore Butter, then put a 0.625" diameter card wad on top the slug to hold in place. It shoots to POA with a clean barrel. The shots go a hand span low with a dirty barrel.
My Lyman Black powder handbook gives lots of loads for this rifle. Got the kit back in the 70's, finished it and had the barrell hot blued at a local shop. Been using it to hunt and rendezvous trail shoots.
Dave

[ColColt]

I remember reading somewhere back in the 70's where Val Forgett took an elephant with the Hawken. I forget the bullet but it wasn't the standard minie bullet...weighed a bit more. If a 520 gr bullet from a 45-70 can penetrate a buffalo I can see how the minie could drop an elephant. Wish I could recall the charge he used but it was something like 140 gr, IIRC.

[fouronesix]

I remember reading somewhere back in the 70's where Val Forgett took an elephant with the Hawken. I forget the bullet but it wasn't the standard minie bullet...weighed a bit more. If a 520 gr bullet from a 45-70 can penetrate a buffalo I can see how the minie could drop an elephant. Wish I could recall the charge he used but it was something like 140 gr, IIRC.

The load used in the 58 cal heavy gun was 180 gr FFF under a 610 gr Minié.
The load used in the 58 cal light gun was 125 gr FFF under the same 610 gr Minié.

That article appears in the 1975 edition of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. The story is laced with misleading if not downright false info. In 1973, when the hunt took place in Tanzania, the author states it was probably the first time an elephant had been taken by a "rifled" muzzleloader in the last 100 years (as if a "rifled" muzzleloader made it more of an accomplishment!) Bull poo. Hunters and poachers have taken (and cripple and lose a large percentage by the way) all the major big game, including elephants, in Africa with AKs and muzzleloaders rifled or not. This has been going on continuously ever since muzzleloaders and blackpowder were introduced to the continent. While poachers commonly use AKs if available, many still use muzzleloaders.

The story has all the smell of a cover for a "stunt hunt" from the get go. Many people still think Forgett "dropped" the bull elephant with a muzzleloader firing a heavy Minié over a heavy charge of black powder out of a heavy "Hawken". More poo! A backup gunner had to use a 458 mag to kill it after being hit with the muzzleloader.

The hippo kill in the story was typical of poor shooting, poor accuracy or poor shot placement. Hippos are usually shot in the water and clean kills require very precise shooting to hit the brain case. The first shot at 60 yards was anything but perfect- through the lower neck and jaw and required follow up shots to finish off the hippo that was wildly thrashing around in the water.

There are other errors in the story with nonsense embellishments obviously designed to cater to the uneducated or at least gullible masses about hunting big game in Africa with a muzzleloader…. to make such hunting sound even more "macho". Like the statement about the weight of an average male Cape Buffalo being 4000-5000 pounds (associated with the part of the story about killing a Cape Buffalo with a muzzleloader). Obviously a false statement to embellish the "feat"- good grief! I'll guarantee a 1500 pound (average adult male) Cape Buffalo is all anyone wants to dink around with using even a modern medium to large bore dangerous game rifle and modern ammo.

Sometimes facts are uncomfortable.

[ColColt]

Well, I reckon that's what I get for believing what I read. I met Val Forgett at a gun show in Charlotte, NC around 1972 and he didn't seem the type to spin tales but I guess looks are deceiving.