RCBS C-180-fn in the 30-30

[newton]

I know this topic has been talked about, and the point I am going to ask about has been mentioned, but I guess its never been really explained or talked in detail so I that's what I am looking for.

I loaded some rounds with the afore mentioned boolit and noticed something right off the bat. When I seat the boolit, it would go down real nice then at the end of the stroke it would 'break free' for lack of better word. Eventually it hit me that it was the gas check dropping below the case neck.

This would not be an issue, except for normally what I have seen written about this boolit is that you only run through the sizer to seat the gas check. So, that means that the gas check is lets say .310" or .311" but the boolit stays a thou smaller. Multiple sources say that the boolit is not touched when putting on gas checks, which mean that the gas check is a tad bit larger diameter than the boolit. Therefore, when the gas check is pushed through the neck of the case, then it opens it up and the boolit is not held very well - if at all.

So in my mind, the boolit is kind of just 'hanging' in there. Its held from going deeper by the crimp, and from coming out by the gas check. Make sense?

I know that this boolit works with the 30-30, there is too much information saying so. So am I just being paranoid? I think that I need to size the boolit and seat the gas check the same size for this to really work I guess. I guess I will have to beagle my mold, or add some tape to make the boolit a tad bit bigger. One other thing I thought of was paper patching the boolit.

Anyone ever paper patched the RCBS C-180-fn for the 30-30?

I have some loaded up as is for now. I am going to test tonight. I just hope that the somewhat loose boolits do not cause problems. I am not expecting any accuracy sad to say. I really have major doubts about it all to tell you the truth. But I really would like to hunt with these next week.

[Piedmont]

You are worrying too much. The only problem I would see with a loose fit is deeper seating in the mag tube, but since you crimped in the groove that won't be a problem. And if your bullets aren't real hard you don't want a tight neck situation with hunting loads (unless for better powder burning) because the tight neck may distort your softer hunting alloy. Of course I am assuming these aren't real hard so they will expand in flesh.

What are the particulars of your load?

[Hurricane]

I use Hornady crimp-on Gas Checks that crimps on the base of the lead bullet. Put on the GC by hand (you will feel it click onto the base of the bullet). Then put it in the sizer and size the bullet and the GC together. The GC will crimp into the bullet for a very firm fit. The top of the GC is a little thicker then the rest of the GC and running it through the sizer is like driving a nail into the bullet. If the GC is loose after it has been sized the GC part of the bullet is too small. I shoot a lot of RCBS 30-180-FN in 30-30 and in 308 Win. with no problems. I crimp the bullet in the case in the factory crimp groove for both 30-30 and 308 Win. As a result the GC on the 308 Win. will be below the neck of the case but have never had any trouble with it. The 30,000 psi or so will keep the bullet and GC together. If I need to disassemble a cartridge by pulling the bullet with a wrench the GC will pull off and stay in the case. It does not happen often and I just discard that case. If you can seat the bullet without going below the neck of the case and still have a cartridge that will work through the action you would have nothing to worry about. Max length for a cartridge is 2.550" with the Marlin 336, check the max if you are using a different gun. I do not make ammo larger that 2.50" to have a safety against a jam.

[newton]

You are worrying too much. The only problem I would see with a loose fit is deeper seating in the mag tube, but since you crimped in the groove that won't be a problem. And if your bullets aren't real hard you don't want a tight neck situation with hunting loads (unless for better powder burning) because the tight neck may distort your softer hunting alloy. Of course I am assuming these aren't real hard so they will expand in flesh.

What are the particulars of your load?

I figured I was. There were way to many people who have really liked this boolit in the 30-30 to say that it wont work in mine. I did test some rounds by slamming them down nose first on the bench to see if the boolit would move into the case. They wont.

The boolits are a mix of pure and ww with a tad bit of linotype thrown in. Not scientific, and the mix is about 50/50. But it has worked well for me in the past. They are soft, but I do water drop them to make them a touch harder. I have tried them both ways and the water dropped shot a lot better than air cooled. I have done a sledge hammer test on them to see if they were too brittle, and they pass with flying colors.

The loads I am going to try are with IMR 4320. I am going to try 28, 28.5, and 29(if the 28.5 does not show high pressures at all, and if I am not getting where I want to be). I have read a few places where guys are using 30 grains of the same powder, and 30 grains is a starting load of this powder with a 170 grain jacketed bullet in the 30-30 case. So I am sure, or pretty close to sure, that I am well within the pressure limits. However, I am not trying to get close to the threshold at all and realize when I start playing with these loads anything can happen. So I am doing so very carefully. I have a newer model gun so I am sure I will see pressure signs on the case before I the gun goes boom. But I am hoping to stay far enough away from all of that regardless.

[newton]

I use Hornady crimp-on Gas Checks that crimps on the base of the lead bullet. Put on the GC by hand (you will feel it click onto the base of the bullet). Then put it in the sizer and size the bullet and the GC together. The GC will crimp into the bullet for a very firm fit. The top of the GC is a little thicker then the rest of the GC and running it through the sizer is like driving a nail into the bullet. If the GC is loose after it has been sized the GC part of the bullet is too small. I shoot a lot of RCBS 30-180-FN in 30-30 and in 308 Win. with no problems. I crimp the bullet in the case in the factory crimp groove for both 30-30 and 308 Win. As a result the GC on the 308 Win. will be below the neck of the case but have never had any trouble with it. The 30,000 psi or so will the bullet and GC together. If I need to disassemble a cartridge by pulling the bullet with a wrench the GC will pull off and stay in the case. It does not happen often and I just discard that case. If you can seat the bullet without going below the neck of the case and still have a cartridge that will work through the action you would have nothing to worry about. Max length for a cartridge is 2.550" with the Marlin 336, check the max if you are using a different gun. I do not make ammo larger that 2.50" to have a safety against a jam.

Thanks. The gas checks are crimping on just fine. No problems there. I was testing fit and managed to pull a check off in the case neck a few times, but I had to pull really hard for them to come off. What do you mean by "The 30,000 psi or so will the bullet and GC together."? I assume you mean push/hold?

Yes, 2.550" is max for my gun I am almost positive. I remember trying to load them longer in the past and it causing some jams. I wish, really wish I could seat the GC in the neck. It would make me feel so much better about the round. But like I have said, many people have spoken highly of this boolit and round, so it must be fine sitting below the neck.

I'm shooting a M94 AE by the way.

[newton]

Well, I'm not sure where to post this. I want to get as much feedback as I can and it involves powder load, but also my gun. I figure I'll post here since I'm more concerned about pressure signs in the 30-30.

So I tested my loads this evening. Not even close to what I expected. I had loaded 9 rounds last night. Starting at 28 grains I loaded 3, then 3 with 28.5 grains, and 3 with 29 grains. IMR 4320 is the powder. I had guessed, kind of, at these loads last night, but found support (actual manual data, not just posts) for them today. Lyman #45 states a 193 grain jacketed bullet with 29 max charge is going over 1900 fps.

I started red with the low end ones, very very mild shots that hit significantly lower(like 6") than my standard lee 170 grain(183 grain actual) boolits do. The primers were actually backing out, which in my experience, has said that the pressures were way way low. They were averaging 1675 fps with significant differences in speed. Then the 28.5 rounds, averaged 1710, AD was a lot tighter. 29 rounds averaged 1760 fps and the AD opened back up.

Thats all I had loaded, so I went and loaded some single rounds. 29.5 and 30. Above max, but I was seeing NO pressure signs. Recoil was even very mild on the previous ones. 29.5 came in at 1792, 30 came in at 1833. Again, no pressure signs, but recoil and report was getting more like I'm used to(with 170 grain booits and jacketed rounds).

Being somewhat convinced that I had something odd here, and based on the fact that I know others have gone to 30 grains without issue, I went higher. 30.5, 30.7, and 31. At 31 I couldn't hear the powder shake anymore in the case. So that's about 100% fill. 30.5 came in at 1875 and 30.7 right above it at 1878. At 31 it got too dark for the chrony to see. So that's where I left it. But, at 31 is the first time it "felt" normal and showed any sign of pressure with just the smallest bit of extraction hang up. But it was hard to tell. I only noticed because I was watching for it. Under normal circumstances I would have never noticed.

So so I am sure I am getting to 1900+ fps with that load. But why the difference in data? I know it's not 1970, and I'm not using a jacketed bullet, but I would expect to be somewhat close.

I am pretty sure that my scale is correct, I have a 100 grain commercial bullet to check with. But I'm not ruling out lower charge weights than what the scale is saying(lee beam scale). Could it be the smaller .309" booolit I'm using? Not causing enough friction for pressure and in turn lowering velocity? Could be my chrony, so I will check it with some factory loads, but that still doesn't make up for the almost non exsistant pressure signs.

Im confused. The 31 grain loads were reaching close to my POA. They were also lining up better vertically with my sights, the lower charges were shooting left.

What at to do? Main question is what is a sign of true over pressure in the 30-30 round in a levergun? Anyone have pictures? I'll try to post picture of my spent cases.

[newton]

Pictures

All cases, from lightest load to heavy on right


Close up of "over max" 5 loads


Necks of of the loads. Blow by got less and less.


Im gonna go get my mic now and take measurements of case head expansion.

[newton]

28 grain load - .4198"
28.5 load - .4196"
29 load - .4197"
29.5 load - .4197"
30 load - 4207" - Winchester brass
30.5 load - .4193"
30.7 load - .4197"
31 load - .4204" - Winchester brass

go figure that most of my brass is FC, and those two are Win. But regardless, the head is not expanding any really? I did not full length size these, they were fired and only neck sized.

What gives here? Anyone seen this before?

[newton]

Well, so much for the one that seemed a little hard to extract. It was the last one which was the Winchester case. The 30 grain load Winchester case does the same thing. The only ones that about fall back out of the chamber are the two low end loads. Which, according to the jacketed data, are not low end at all.

Personally i am starting to think I am not nearing the max yet. There are just no signs of it. What do you do in a case like this? Hodgdon, newest data, says 32.5 is max load on a jacketed 170 grain bullet. That gives 2068 fps and 36,300 psi. Would 20 more grains of boolit weight and a cast boolit(which would be less friction) come close to this kind of data? It seems so since their starting data shows 30 grains at 1976 fps and around 30,000 psi.

I think my boolits are small, and are not causing enough friction to raise pressures. But this is my first anomaly like this.

[CBH]

What kind of groups are you getting?

[newton]

Looking at the other cases I had shot, one of the 28.5 load cases was a Winchester brass also. Measured .4200". So there is some case expansion, but not sure if the fact that these were already fired, just neck sized, makes much of a difference.

But it seems to me that if the pressures were high, then the 30.7 load in the FC brass could expand to the .4200"+ mark. But it didn't. Am I missing something here?

[newton]

What kind of groups are you getting?

i was getting 1 1/2" groups on the first three loads. The 4 other loads were single shots just looking for velocity and pressure signs. They steadily creeped up to POA though, and those 4 shots made a 2" group.

[newton]

Not sure if you can tell very well, but each group was labeled with marks except for the last 4 shots.

I have to admit though. I was not going for groups too much. Seeing how I would close my eyes right before I squeezed the trigger hard enough. I figured if gass was to come out, even though I was wearing eye protection, my eyes closed would help. Lol. Call me a bit paranoid...

[newton]

I wonder if this isn't the cooler weather. It's only about 50 here, but I have heard that 4320 is pretty temp sensitive. Maybe published loads are base on hotter ambient temps?

[newton]

Looks like I'll be backing off this expirent till I get different powder or new cases. Hodgdon lists a good way to estimate pressure but you need new cases. So much for my measuring of my cases from tonight.

Im still reading, but it seems that the 30-30 is the least favorite for reading primers and such. Seeing how I have a newish gun, I believe it to be stronger than the older ones. But I'm not going to chance it right now.

I would still love some insight from others here. I am not trying to hot rod the gun at all. It should be more than capable of pushing that boolit to 1900 fps, even using the powder I am. If it can be done with faster burning powders, it should be able with this one. I get that powders act differently, but we are not talking max velocity.

Id say my chrony is way off, but the hits on the paper seem to be in line with what the velocity is telling me.

Man i am so confused and at a point I've never been before. I really want to use this boolit, bad, but it looks like I'm done for a few weeks. Dang it!

[starmac]

IIRC Larry Gibson posted some great info with bonafied pressures and velocities with that boolit and a couple of powders. Leverrevolution was one for sure and I think the other was 760, but could be wrong about that. I do remember that lever won out on pressures and velocity, but both had excellant results.
I have never done it, but read several times where guys load until the primers stop backing out and call it good.

IIRC Larrys testing was done with a 94 AE too.

[newton]

I did read that thread. It was good info. It must just be my powder choice. I cannot see how, per say, but I think it's what might be the problem. I would blame the chrony, but where the rounds were hitting pretty much lines up with that velocity. I'll try again on a day when I have more time to test the chrony and know it's for sure working.

I can't think of anything else I can do for now. I thought about running H4350 in the cases since there is a lot of test done with those slower powders. It's what I use for my lee boolit with great success. I'd be curious how it responded there. It just interests me that the 4320 is acting like this, but could still be other parts of my load. Guess I shouldn't try to narrow it down like that without some good proof.

Anyone ever seen this with smallish boolits?

[newton]

Here is the thing. I'm not doing this all blind. There is that limited amount of data in the manual, but also a lot of other info about it on the Internet. Yea, can't trust all you read, but I would like to think that they were somewhat close in their info. My tests just seem far away from theirs. Or are they closer than what I think?

[newton]

One thing I just thought about is the fact that my scale might be the culprit. I am trying to think it all through in my head and I had a thought that I think I remember weighing a full Lee scoop of 4320 on my scale, which should have been 30.6 grains, and it came in at over 31 grains. I'll have to double check that though. So I'm thinking that it might just be that I am not getting true measurements on my powder. I am going to be looking for another scale soon. Guess it cannot hurt to have two in order to double check things.

On the other hand, I think I will abandon my goal with 4320. Its just not worth the risk. I think in using this heavy boolit I am going to have to go with a slower powder. I just wish the supply would come back so I could pick some up.

[newton]

Ok, I was talking with a guy here at work describing the situation, and there is something off. It has to be one, or more of the following. Bad chrony readings, Bad boolit fit(not obliterating and causing lower pressure/lower velocity?), Bad charge weight(not reading it right). It has to be one of those. I just cannot see it being just a bad powder usage for this boolit.

Castpics says that Win748 max charge of 30 grains should give 1963 fps.
Junior tested Varget at 28.4 grains with almost the same fps.
4320 sits right in the middle, and I am having to load 31 grains to even get close.

Something is not right. Right? Hope people can come by and chime in on this. The above is not the only data I have found. Most others who have tried powder around these rates have come up with the same thing.

I am going to do my best to find some H414 or Win760, but will try my 4350 also. An interesting thought on this is that Larry mentioned in his thread that the powder, with the heavier boolits, did not start burning efficiently until reaching 100% load density. I did notice on all the loads up to the 30.5 that there were kernels left in the bore. The 31 grain load did not have any.