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Thread: Ultrasonic brass cleaning ?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy loadedbutbroke's Avatar
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    Ultrasonic brass cleaning ?

    Hello again from the UK.

    I have been shooting black powder cartridge for just over a year now and I love it. Brass here is hard to find at the current time for 45-70 so I am trying to look after my limited stock of Remington and Star. However one thing I am finding tedious and unsatisfactory in application is, and I suspect you have guessed it, cleaning up the brass afterwards!!!!!!!!!

    I have read various bits on this web site and others but there does not seem to be a definitive answer as to the best method.
    To date I have been soaking in water with washing up liquid after the shoot, drying off, using some Lee neck lube, neck sizing the cases with a Lyman die and then tumbling in a Lyman Orange tumbler with there standard medium. (Green )

    Problems

    The brass has to be tumbled for hours to remove the staining/bloom on the outside and to polish them up a little.

    The tumbling seems to make no difference to the internal fouling which just builds up over successive shoots.

    Trying to brush out the fouling with a bristle brush and water gets some out but is time consuming and produces uneven results and does nothing for the crud at the bottom of the case.

    The primer pocket is not cleaned so has to be done separately with a special brush.

    Using a wire brush in a drill creates lots of heat which I worry will damage the case and also seems to give an uneven result leaving the base uncleaned.


    To speed things up I have bought an Ultrasonic machine and had one go with slightly encouraging results but :-

    What solution should I use?.
    Vinegar marks the cases quite badly?
    Fairy Liquid seems to work to some extent?
    The time in the machine appears to be a lot longer than expected to achieve a result.
    The crud is softened but needs to be swabbed out it does not flow out.
    The brass comes out looking really raw.
    Is the process of using the ultrasonic work hardening the brass?


    Now you guys will have much more experience than I have so any comments on how to speed things up and get a better result will be most helpful, however in particular I wondered if any have experience of using an Ultrasonic machine to really reduce the times involved and to get the crud out of the cases?

    Adrian

    PS. I am lead to believe that it is important not to over polish the outside of straight cases so they grip the inside of the chamber better. However the inside of cases should be clean to decrease the drag on the case on firing?

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy BigAl52's Avatar
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    Adrian
    I shot BPCR for many years and havent shot it in about 8 or nine years. I never tried ultrasonic but what worked the best for me was ceramic media in a Thumblers Tumbler with a cleaning solution that I bought from a company called Sagebrush Products in Sidney,Nebraska. The ceramic media would clean the brass inside and out to look like new. It would also clean out the primer pockets. This small bottle of solution would make many gallons of cleaning formula to add to the media with the brass in it. If I were to get back into it I would use the same method it worked real well for me. Al
    NRA Life Member

    Guns have two enemies Rust and Politicians

  3. #3
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    Minerat's Avatar
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    BigAL52,

    What a great site http://www.sageoutfitters.com/catalo...07/7452522.htm

    Had to look after you told Adrian about it. I still shoot a Hawlkens 54 cal and Sidney is not too far from Denver to make a road trip.

    Thanks,

    Steve

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy BigAl52's Avatar
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    Steve
    Harlan Sage is a good guy I shot many matches with him at Alliance,Neb. He also sponors a shoot up there every year. I still have a Shiloh in 45-100 just havent done any competive shooting for quite some time. Al
    NRA Life Member

    Guns have two enemies Rust and Politicians

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy loadedbutbroke's Avatar
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    Hello

    Thanks for the reply's. I am still trying to work out how best to use the ultrasonic cleaner. I would be most grateful to hear from others who use Ultrasonic cleaners on how they get on particularly when dealing with black powder cartridges.

    Also the method used e.g. soaking the cases first in what?

    Adrian
    Last edited by loadedbutbroke; 11-06-2014 at 07:19 AM.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy loadedbutbroke's Avatar
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    Problems with Soaking/Ultrasonic cleaning

    Hi

    I am having problems with this Ultrasonic cleaning. It takes far too long and I still have to tumble the brass and then re-clean it with Fairy to get any sort of respectable result. The fouling seems to turn into some sort of black sticky deposit that can only be removed by swabbing out.

    I read on another post about using Citric Acid to soak the cases so I tried this Big Problems:-

    I soaked the cases, decapped, in a 10% citric acid solution immediately after firing. Having got home the cases had turned almost completely black with a hard staining/deposit inside and out.


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    The above picture shows them after 30 minuets treatment in the ultrasonic machine with a Seagreen 2 solution ( the citric would not touch it). The black will now partially rub off. I then had to tumble for 5 hours to get them anywhere near respectable again. (Below)


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    I then cleaned them in a citric acid solution (in the Ultrasonic machine for 30 miniuets) and then in Fairy for 20 minuets .

    When I came back this was the result


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    They have turned blue/purple/yellow and look absolutely dreadful.

    More than this there is still black goo inside some of them which I have to swab out.


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ID:	122200 (This picture was taken at an earlier stage but the result is the same.)


    So the result is totally different from that I was expecting having read other posts. What am I doing wrong?

    Adrian

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    I would second a tumble filled with stainless steel pins. It will clean everything out for ya.
    "Just try to remember which end makes the bad guys go away."

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I normally soak (range clean) my BPCR brass on firing in a gallon laundry jug ( bigger opening makes getting cases in and out easier) The mix is 203 tablespoons dawn dish soap and 1 tablespoon lemishine citric. They go in as fired and soak till I get home ussually about an hour or so. I rinse several times in the jug hand agitating the cases until no soap bubbles are present. This is in hot tap water. I then place on drying rack until dru and into dillion vabratory cleaner with corn cobs treated with iosso case polish. a cople hoyrs later they are clean and shiny ready to go. I lightly brush insides with a nylon or bronze bore brush before priming. The black crude tar you are getting sounds like black powder fouling and a petrolium mix.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy loadedbutbroke's Avatar
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    Hello Country Gent

    Great to hear from you again. You kindly wrote re my Which Rifle thread of a year or so ago.

    I had not thought of the possibility of the lube causing a problem by mixing with with the black powder fouling. Unfortunately I don't know what is in the l lube I am using. It seems to work very well but it could contain petroleum based ingredients. I will try and find out.

    However I don't think it is this causing the discoloration of the cases. Could it be the Citric acid?

    I note your regime of soaking; when you get home have the cases gone nearly black as mine did last time? I wondered if the fouling coming out of the cases and into the water was directly attacking/attaching its self to the brass during the soak. One thing I forgot to mention was that as I dropped the decapped cases into my 10% solution the water fizzed around the cases and turned black very quickly! They would have been in the soak for between 1 and 4 hours depending on when I shot them.

    Incidentally I am not trying to achieve a bright shine to the brass just clean inside and out.

    Adrian

  10. #10
    Boolit Master flyingmonkey35's Avatar
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    I wonder what a wet ss pins would do?

    Also have you just tried putting them in simmering water? For a few minutes?
    Then washing in clean water.

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold
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    I have been using an ultrasonic cleaner for the last 3-4 years to clean black powder cartridges with great results. The cases are clean but not polished. Even the primer pockets are clean. Been shooting black powder cartridge for over 20 years
    1) deprime
    2) rinse several times in hot water until the stink is gone and the water is pretty much clean. Leave soaking in hot water
    3) Put hot water with some type of cleaner in your ultrasonic machine. I have been using simple green or LA cleaner from the dollar store.
    4) Run the ultrasonic cleaner for 10-15 with only the liquid in it. This will greatly improve the ultrasonic action once you put the brass in
    5) Put the brass in and run for about 45 to 60 minutes. Make sure the brass in a basket suspended above the bottom of the ultrasonic machine
    6) remove, rinse, spread out on a towel to dry.

    Running the machine with only liquid and keeping the brass above the bottom of the tank will make the cleaning action many times better. I have brass that has been cleaned this way at least ten times without being put in a tumbler. Both the inside is just as clean as the outside. About like your middle picture or a little darker. If your ultrasonic machine is working correctly you will see a trail of dirt comming out of the cases 2-3 seconds after you turn the machine on.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    A friend had this happen with some winchester 45-70 brass I loaned him. He was using just a " healthy squirt of dawn dish soap" as he put it. His jug was small and cases wernt always completely submerged. They were soaking for 5-6 hours. Some were completly black but not all and we believe it was the air exposure allowing this to take place. This was very hard tough coating that resisted even a scratch pad. Being in another country Im not real sure what is available to you to use, but a good quality dish soap and something similar to lemishine ( for cleaning glass with out water spots) should work with out discol;oring. MAybe try windshield washer fluid (the cheap stuff) instead. I see the bubbling you mention when dropping cases into the jug. My cases get a "tarnished" Look to them. WHat Black powder are you using? Ive been using Goex and old ensford so far Have some swiss to test when weather breaks. May be a reaction to lube or powder. If possible try SPG lube its a very good black powder lube and keeps fouling soft.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Don't do BP but do US clean, pistol & rifle. Dish soap & citric acid. Your bottom pic looks like mine if I don't rinse well enough before storing, either citric acid or vinegar washing. I clean the PP then US, once done they usually stay clean with only US. I only run the US for 4 min. but use hot water. All the BP shooters here clean the bore with soapy water after a few shots so I suppose it's the solution for keeping the carbon crud soft. MIght try soaking in solvent & soap to get the black off, then US. Try tumbling with C.C./cat litter to polish the tarnish off, the citric acid US & rinse well to get the good color back.
    Whatever!

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Those brass pics from citric acid look like you used too much and created a patina. I would use a tablespoon of citric acid powder, plus dishwasher detergent, for about 5 gallons of hot water, AFTER soaking and rinsing the brass first. I started adding the citric acid to dish soaps, thinking that if there was any ammonia in there, the acid would get rid of it first for me. Then I noticed how brilliantly clean the brass comes out, just from soap and citric acid. After more experimenting, I determined dishwasher detergent worked even better. I'll use one of those detergent pods, and sprinkle in a little citric acid, stir and shake it up, and let it sit for a couple of hours. Use a big bucket with lid.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy loadedbutbroke's Avatar
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    Hi guys; some really good pionts. I shall experiment further tomorow and let you know how I get on when I am on my proper computer.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    I don't shoot a lot of black powder in brass cartridges.Everything I am going to tell you,I found on this site.It does work for me.When I go to the range,I take a container of vinegar,water and dish liquid(washing up soap?).After firing I drop them in the solution.When I get home I rinse them in hot water.Then they go into another solution of hot water,dawn dish liquid (no ammonia) and citric acid.They sit over night and then I tumble them in crushed walnut media until I remember to take them out.This system works for me,and as the man said "your mileage may vary".
    Pro Patria-Ne Desit Virtus

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy loadedbutbroke's Avatar
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    Progress?

    OK, I have spoken to a couple of people about this Ultrasonic cleaning and neither seemed convinced it is any good! I also have my doubts when it comes to black powder cartridges.

    (I did a batch of 50 .303 ex military cases shot 5 times with some citric acid and some washing up liquid 'Fairy' took 2 goes with the machine with a water change in between; excellent result but of course this is nitro mostly Vit N140, and the cases had previously been tumbled and were nice and shiny)

    However I have not given up yet and managed today to rescue my .45/70 brass quite easily following contributors advice. There are six posts I have not replied to I hope the following addresses your points and questions.

    1. The black-powder I use is Swiss No4 (the slower one) and for the cases in question I used 60grn lightly compressed. The 530 grn Postell bullet is set out until it is just short of the rifling. The cases are neck sized, expanded, flared very slightly but not crimped. One of the critics of the machine thinks the problem with the black goo is caused by the powder not burning well enough due to the fact it is not well enough compressed; i.e. there is more fouling than usual?

    2. The Lube does contain petroleum products but apparently not Alox. In fact there are no animal products in it at all and the maker (the guy who thinks it is under compressed) thinks the lube has nothing to do with it! I do not agree as there is this greasy mess that comes out with swabbing. The idea of the lube is to keep the fouling soft which it does effectively in the barrel but to me seems to be overdoing it in the cases. Unfortunately the Ultrasonic machine seems unable to remove this smeared on lube.

    3. This time, with the badly stained cases, I put them back in the machine with a little citric acid and some Fairy liquid ( A proctor and Gamble product, I thought you had in the States? It is green washing up liquid, the brand leader in the UK and incidentally it works well with cold water so is great for camping) I gave them the treatment for 15 mins with the heater on and low and behold they cleaned off the staining very easily!!!! However considering that the cases have now been cleaned in the machine for at least an hour and an half all told, still more black came out.

    4. While the cases were much cleaner on the outside they still looked a bit patchy and raw. They also had some pink patches on them? So I decided to tumble them again for an hour to shine them up a bit. First however I dried them off by swabbing them out and guess what more black goo and grease came out.

    5. The tumbler has Lyman's green media in it and has been used a bit however it has not gone black but does leave a grey/green dust over the cases especially the inside and this is hard to get out, so I returned the cases to the Ultrasonic machine with fresh water and a little citric and a squirt of Fairy for 10 minuets.

    6. Hooray, the cases did not discolour as they did before and they were nearly completely clean inside. I still swabbed them out and still a little grease and black came out on some of them. So these cases are now acceptable albeit with pink patches on the inside.

    Some observations

    Previously I may have been overdoing the citric acid. For one thing I noticed that the cases were sticky comming out of the machine.

    Soaking in Citric seems to be a complete no no. ( and a big mistake on my part)

    When I tried vinegar it just stained the cases externally.

    Leaving the cases in hot water may cause them to discolour.

    Perhaps it would be better to try and remove the lube from the inside of the cases with a spirit first before using the machine.

    Only soak fired cases in soapy water at the range or perhaps add car windscreen wash.

    Keep changing the water and the solutions at the end of each cycle.

    I have never tried stainless media. In fact I am not sure you can even get it in the UK. Is it alright to use with the Orange Lyman Tumbler?

    Well what do you think gang: Is this Ultrasonic ultimately worth it? It does seem awfully time consuming and with the swabbing out quite irksome? having said that you can tumble for 4 or 5 hours and have nice shiny cases but the insides will remain uncleaned. I am sure it works well with nitro fired cases, but is black powder just too much?



  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I soak after firing my BPCR cases in dishsoap and lemishine in a gallon jug with a large mouth. I make sure there is enough soulution to completly cover the cases. I normally shoot 10 shot strings and deprime add cases after the string is fired. Then while others are walking down range I sit and shake the jug agitating the cases around.When the days firing is done. I sit the jug upright in the car and head home. Once home I grab the jug and to the sink I pour out the Soulution as completely as possible. Then with Hot tap water I rinse agitating cases as many times as needed till no soap bubbles show. CAses are fairrly warm and look pretty good. Onto a driying rack for a few hours and into the polisher with a little nu finish and alchlol added to te corn cobs. a few hours later they look like new. The nu finish seems to leave a light coating that helps keep the fouling from sticking to the cases also. While the corn cob polish is longer time wise it isnt tying up time as the polisher runs unattended other than the few minutes to fill and add the nufinish and alchlol. Normally I start it and let it before going to bed and let it run and shut it off in the morning. If you can get SPG, or one of the lubes meant for black powder that may help with the fouling issues also. I use alot of SPG or emmerts improved and cases clean easily no "tar" residues and cases clean easily. SO far the only diffrence I see in our soaking cleaning is the diffrent lubes and foulings caused but them. Emmerts is easily made from readily available items. 50% beeswax, 40% unsalted crisco shortening, 5% canola or olive oil, and 5% anahydrous lanolin. Met ingredients in a double boiler and mix completely. Use cup cake tins and liners for a mold and melt to fill sizers or if pan lubing to top off pan. This lube works well with just a blow tube for me

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy Silfield's Avatar
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    Hello loaded,
    Try some of this stuff http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/jpl-seacle...rate-05l-a76lg
    I went through a learning curve with my bp cases, trying citric, vinegar, washing up liquid etc but then chanced upon Seaclean and never looked back. I drop the empty cases in a milk carton full of water/washing up liquid after firing to keep the fouling soft but they get rinsed off as soon as I get home and put into the ultrasonic tank for proper cleaning. They will never be 'new brass' shiny but they are clean inside and out. You can always polish them in a tumbler afterwards.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy loadedbutbroke's Avatar
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    Hello Silfield, Taylor, Country Gent et al.

    I think there is a strong consensus growing that the the best course of action on the range is to simply soak the cases in water and washing up liquid, something I have done in the past, but do tend to get the cases going very dull/tarnished. However this I will do next time having had my less than satisfactory results in trying other things.

    Getting back to the Ultrasonic machine its self, as Silfield has experienced, I also seem to be be on a sharp learning curve with this technology having tried a number of things including Seaclean2 with mixed results.

    I do not have any once shot dirty cases at the moment but will have at the weekend, and I will try again with the Ultrasonic machine. Any further thoughts would be most welcome?




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