Pyrodex

[oldred]

Would you shoot smokeless in an M81 Vetterli circa 1887 or a Remington M67 Swedish Rollingblock circa 1874? Those are both cartridge guns and I wouldn't. I prefer the bolts of those gun to stay in the gun and not imbedded in my eye. I've heard of people using smokeless in those guns, but I'm not going to risk it over something STUPID like this. I use substitutes because I cannot find BP locally, I don't shoot enough of it to justify ordering 5 pounds or paying $30 for shipping, and because it works just fine in my rifles.



You assume that others shoot as much BP as you do. Many don't. I've had a pound of powder for over a year, and have made it less than half way through it. Why should I buy 5 pounds of the stuff when I don't shoot it much? I'd rather spend that money on something I'd actually use.

There are smokeless loads that will produce less pressure than a BP load and makes it perfectly ok in most BP guns. However if you look back at my posts I have REPEATEDLY said in original BP firearms made of questionable steels and design strength then there is no margin for error at all and smokeless might be risky, or might not as long as it is a low pressure load. A better question might be why would it be stupid to shoot a smokeless load of less pressure than a full case of BP rather than shoot a sub who's claim to fame is that it produces MORE pressure than BP! That would seem stupid to me!

If the gun is that close to the border line then the higher pressure subs would seem to be as great or even a greater risk than a lower pressure smokeless load!


What's your problem, you accuse me of assuming everyone shoots as much as I do when I clearly said just the opposite I even explained and defended those who shoot only a small amount for exactly the same reasons you gave yet none of that mattered to you in the least and because you were somehow offended you resort to childish name calling?

Go back and read what I said before mouthing off!

[rfd]

precisely what oldred said.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I had some pyro-**** for my cap n ball pistols, it will degrade over a period of time so for even the casual shooter it does not really pay. I use a lot of powder most matches I attend will require a min of 45 rounds for a mid-range match each day. Ordering in 5 pounds means the casual shooter has a lifetime supply quite cheap. Of course, anyone can make an excuse for not, to each their own, just shoot.
KW

[Don McDowell]

You assume that others shoot as much BP as you do. Many don't. I've had a pound of powder for over a year, and have made it less than half way through it. Why should I buy 5 pounds of the stuff when I don't shoot it much? I'd rather spend that money on something I'd actually use.

If a person won't even shoot a pound of black in a year, they won't shoot a pound of substitute. Most of the substitutes loose energy after the can has been opened..
Just this past Saturday, I shot 50 rounds thru 2 rifles that used the same powder charge..(50 x81=4050 grs) so just with one simple load development session I used well over 1/2 lb of powder...
Back in the day when I shot muzzleloaders, if we didn't burn a pound of powder in a weekend it was a pretty miserable weekend, unless we went fishin...

[Knarley]

I tried some Pyrodex in a cannon that shoots golf balls not too long ago. The cannon went FOOOMPF and the golf ball rolled down range about 20 ft.
Same load with real black, well, the ball went into orbit.
I've hunted pheasants with it ONCE, never again. That being said, if that was all I could get, and the zombies were at the door, I'd use my sword.

Knarley

[rfd]

... That being said, if that was all I could get, and the zombies were at the door, I'd use my sword. ...

too funny!

[triggerhappy243]

Golf balls do not count as cannon fodder... Not a fair comparison.

[texaswoodworker]

There are smokeless loads that will produce less pressure than a BP load and makes it perfectly ok in most BP guns. However if you look back at my posts I have REPEATEDLY said in original BP firearms made of questionable steels and design strength then there is no margin for error at all and smokeless might be risky, or might not as long as it is a low pressure load. A better question might be why would it be stupid to shoot a smokeless load of less pressure than a full case of BP rather than shoot a sub who's claim to fame is that it produces MORE pressure than BP! That would seem stupid to me!

If the gun is that close to the border line then the higher pressure subs would seem to be as great or even a greater risk than a lower pressure smokeless load!

There are very few smokeless loads available for either of those cartridges. I have tried one smokeless load in my Vetterli. very light charge of Trail Boss. It didn't shoot worth a darn. It may have shot better had I increased the charge, but I don't see a point in risking it when I can just use a substitute that already shoots much better.

As for the substitutes having higher pressure, I have always read that a 100gr volumetric charge of Pyrodex is extremely similar to Goex FFg.

Pyrodex is the most common "black powder substitute." It is really the only synthetic black powder "performance" substitute in common use. By performance substitute, I refer to a charge of loose powder measure by volume. A 100 grain volumetric charge of Pyrodex RS (Rifle/Shotgun) is very close in performance to Goex FFg black powder.

There are differences, though, and this is where things get a bit convoluted. Pyrodex is bulkier, another way of saying "less dense." By weight, it is more powerful than Goex black powder. But, the traditional method of measuring black powder is indeed by volume, so in that sense it is a black powder performance substitute.

By actual weight, it is not the same. 100 grains measured by volume of Goex FFg is about 101.3 grains by weight. 100 grains measured by volume of Pyrodex RS is about 72.5 grains by weight. Pyrodex is where confusion can start to set in, as the standard "F" designations of powder coarseness start to go out the window.

Pyrodex "Select," formulated for use in muzzleloading rifles, is touted as an "extremely consistent" grade of Pyrodex, and has the largest grain size of them all. It is even farther away from black powder by actual weight; 100 grains volumetric equals about 63.9 grains by actual weight.

Pyrodex, though man-made and with a variety of additives, still has sulfur in it and is corrosive. It is classified as a smokeless powder by the DOT, and bears little resemblance to traditional black powder in actual weight or grain size. It is a bit harder to ignite than black powder, and is safer to handle, use, and store due to this fact. It is also not as impact-sensitive as is true black powder. Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive as is black powder, and is sold at many chain stores due to this fact.

What's your problem, you accuse me of assuming everyone shoots as much as I do when I clearly said just the opposite I even explained and defended those who shoot only a small amount for exactly the same reasons you gave yet none of that mattered to you in the least and because you were somehow offended you resort to childish name calling?

Go back and read what I said before mouthing off!

How about practicing what you preach? The part of my post that you quoted was not directed towards you. It was directed towards Don. Also, please show me where I called anyone a name. I don't recall doing so and I cannot find a single instance of name calling in my post. The worst thing I did was call the BP vs substitute argument stupid. I didn't insult or attack a single person.

What was that about going back and reading what I said before mouthing off? :P

If a person won't even shoot a pound of black in a year, they won't shoot a pound of substitute. Most of the substitutes loose energy after the can has been opened..
Just this past Saturday, I shot 50 rounds thru 2 rifles that used the same powder charge..(50 x81=4050 grs) so just with one simple load development session I used well over 1/2 lb of powder...
Back in the day when I shot muzzleloaders, if we didn't burn a pound of powder in a weekend it was a pretty miserable weekend, unless we went fishin...

Ok, If you can't even shoot a full pound in a year, how does it make sense to buy 5 pounds of the stuff when your not going to use it?

[dromia]

OK gentlemen lets back off, avoid escalting and just debate the topic without leading to rancour, that way we avoid thread locking infractions etc.

[cajun shooter]

Attachment 134878Attachment 134878

This is a picture of my "NEW AT THE TIME TTN SHOTGUN" after it was returned to me from the companies gunsmith that did warranty work for them. He was located in Illinois and I was told to send the 2 day old shotgun to him for warranty repair. The gun was very hard to break open for loading and was of no use to me for shooting my SASS matches.
I advised the gunsmith via phone that I shot nothing but BP and that I wanted the gun tested with the same loads that I shot in competition. He stated that he did not load BP himself but had a close friend who shot BP in SASS matches in Illinois and that he could get some test rounds from him.
What took place next is why I have a huge problem with people who say they shoot BP, then you find out that they actually shoot Pyrodex, APP, 777 or some other sub powder. After the gunsmith finished his work and test fired the gun with the BP rounds from his friend, he boxed it up and sent it to my FFL.
I was notified that the gun had come in and when I opened the box, I almost hit the floor. I could not believe that this piece of rust was my gun. The outside of the gun was also full of rust spots, especially around the chamber area of the SXS. I notified EMF from whom I had purchased the gun. Walt Johnson was working for them at the time. I told him my story and sent him about 12 pictures mof what I had received.
I advised him that I had called the gunsmith and he advised that he had cleaned the gun after the test firing and that he could sell that gun to anyone. The gun was on the UPS truck for 3 1/2 days. He said that his friend always shot BP and the brand was Pyrodex. I had to laugh when he told me that. I explained that Pyrodex was not real BP and that I was not going to argue with him.
The gunsmith had a new TTN on order so EMF sent me that gun and sent the gun in the picture to the gunsmith so he could sell it to anybody as he had stated.
I told the gunsmith that if he had used real BP and not a sub, we would not have a problem as I shoot matches on Saturday and don't clean my guns until Monday or Tuesday without one problem. They still have many who shoot subs and say they shoot BP, even asking on this forum what is the difference in their load and one with Goex 2F. It will never cease I guess. Later David

[bangerjim]

Dirty and corrosive? That explains why I see boxes of bottles of this stuff at LGS's for 50-75% discounts!

I guess i could use some for fireworks?

banger-j

[triggerhappy243]

Banger, tell me what stores are selling this at 50 to 75% discounts. I want 2 cases of it.

[oldred]

Banger, tell me what stores are selling this at 50 to 75% discounts. I want 2 cases of it.

Not right at this moment but WallyWorld often has it for that at the end of the season, the trick is to be there when they clearance it!

[triggerhappy243]

Out here in abq, it does not last but 20 minutes here. And rarely drops below $15.00 per pound.

[triggerhappy243]

Pyrodex is very popular around here. Our dry climate makes it stable and lasts for years.

[rfd]

i have no experience with 777 but i can relate my sad personal experience with pyrodex ... weaker and incredibly more corrosive than real black powder. that pyrodex krap nearly ruined a pedersoli kentucky flintlock, and it took me nearly 3 weeks of daily scrubs with pb blaster and patches to clean out the red rust/corrosion down in the barrel's chamber. if there was only a choice between pyrodex or not shooting, that flinter would still be hanging over the fireplace.

[str8shot426]

I tried it twice. First shot was a hangfire, the second didn't fire.

Gave the rest away. Nothing but black here.

[usmc1963]

make the bp yourself its not hard to do

[MikeA]

Anyone touch on Pyrodex being compressed. I loaded 70gr by volume. 060 felt wad compressed roughly .125". On bpcr.net it was showing that it would clump at that compression and basically blow up your rifle. Anyone chime in on this? Don't mean to hijack this thread but it does refer to Pyrodex. Only being I have about 25rds that I'm now iffy on firing.

[Don McDowell]

It won't blow your rifle up when compressed. When it first came out that's the only way it would shoot worth a poop in cartridge guns was to compress the snot out of it.