RepackboxLee PrecisionRotoMetals2Wideners
Inline FabricationADvertise hereTitan ReloadingMidSouth Shooters Supply

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 145

Thread: Pyrodex

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    East Tn
    Posts
    3,705
    That's interesting about the 45-120 and brings me right back to my question, if not black then why not just use a bulky low pressure smokeless load and not bother with the subs? A huge case like the 45-120 would seem questionable for smokeless loading IMHO but there's lots of load data out there for different smokeless loads and no rash of 45-120 blow-ups being reported so it would seem using that data would be safer than your experience with Pyrodex, of course in huge cases like that BP would seem to be the logical choice for several reasons. 45 Colt or most any BP pistol cartridge and even big cases like the 45-90 and a host of other BP rifle cartridges there are case filling smokeless loads of the right powders that shoot quite well and at about the same (and sometimes even lower) pressures as a BP load so why Pyrodex?

    This is not to suggest using smokeless and abandoning BP but, once more, the point is that if BP is not going to be used for whatever the reason why not use a smokeless "sub" instead of the highly corrosive and cleaning critical concoctions? For a Cap&Ball or a ML one of the subs might make sense in the absence of real BP but for a cartridge gun it just seems to be a solution for a problem that doesn't exist!


    An interesting note on smokeless loads and big cases, the 45/70 is almost the oldest BP cartridge out there with just a handful being older and it has been factory loaded with smokeless for many years. I don't know what powder they use today but I assume Winchester still uses the same thing they did in the 70's when I pulled one down out of curiosity and the intent to reuse the components for a heavier load for my then brand new 1895 Marlin. It was surprising to me then at just how little actual powder was contained in that case under that 405 grain bullet, lot's of air space in that case and it obviously has not been a problem but still with the right powders most cases can be loaded nearly full. This is NOT to advocate using smokeless instead of BP but rather IF real honest-to-goodness Black is not to be used then why use something that's only similarity to BP is being corrosive (or even more so) and cleaning critical for both firearm and cases?
    Last edited by oldred; 11-04-2014 at 01:36 PM.

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,423
    Good points oldred.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master

    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Arizona
    Posts
    3,469
    Pyrodex is sold by weight but loaded by volume. A pound canister of Pyrodex gives more shots than a pound canister of black powder. Shot for shot, it is cheaper than all but the most bargain priced black powder.

    The Pyrodex shooter doesn't have to resort to wiping between shots or blow tubing, because the fouling does not continue to build in the bore the way it does with black powder. Pyrodex P works well for me in small rounds like the .32 Long because it has enough upsetting power to slug up the hollow base boolit but doesn't leave the accuracy destroying mess in the barrel that the equivalent load of Black would leave. I've also used it in my .32 muzzleloader when I want to do more shooting and less wiping. I have a Garrett Sharps Carbine that seemed to thrive on Pyrodex CTG when that grade was available. I was sorry to see it go. It never needed compression that I could see. And no, it doesn't shoot better with "real" black powder. It may in future, with a lot of finagling, but that Pyrodex load was quick and easy. I'm not always in the mood for a "science project."

    Pyrodex has perchlorate in it to raise the ignition temperature. (This allowed it to be sold as a "flammable solid" back when Black Powder was classified as an "explosive.") The chloride salts left after firing are more liable to induce corrosion than the sulfides and oxides left by black powder, but the same timely cleanup regime that works for either will work for both with no corrosion troubles later. For people who take normal care in cleaning their guns, this is a prime nonissue. People who neglect their firearms will have the same problems down the road with either.

    Most shooting is for fun or sport, for hitting reasonable size targets at reasonable ranges. For this shooting, black powder substitutes can hold their own with anything else.

    I have absolutely no faith that this post, which has provided answers to the original poster's questions, will do anything to prevent the next "Why? WHY?? WhyOWhyOWhy????" repetition of the same stuff that has been said over and over already. The real question is "Why?" (do people who don't use blackpowder substitutes, and often have never even given them a reasonable trial, expend so much effort and bandwidth in their jihad against them) and "Why?" (are they so red-hot to come up with some magic rationalization that will induce total strangers to also avoid trying them.) I've never heard a cheese lover say Velveeta should be taken off the market or an aspirin user say nobody should use Tylenol because it's only a substitute. Only certain religionists and black powder shooters will have no other before them. "Why, Lisa?? Why, Why??" (Hand to brow.)

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
    GOPHER SLAYER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Cherry Valley ,Ca.
    Posts
    2,177
    Gheez, Ramrod how much coffee did you have this morning?
    A GUN THAT'S COCKED AND UNLOADED AIN'T GOOD FOR NUTHIN'........... ROOSTER COGBURN

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,423
    Can't speak for others, but as for myself everything I post on this or any other board is drawn from hands on experience. And as I said in my first post if blackpowder is not required by rule for the type of shooting a person is doing, then what exactly is the point in messing with any of the subs? Smokeless will give good accuracy, get 3 times as many shots per pound as pyrodex at the same price, without all the clean up involved....And if it's allowed for the competition one wants to shoot Blackhorn 209 will out shoot Pyrodex so dang easy it's not even funny, and requires absolutely no fouling control. The stuff is spendy, but delivers extreme accuracy..
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    5,422
    And if it's allowed for the competition one wants to shoot Blackhorn 209 will out shoot Pyrodex
    Blackhorn 209 is not allowed for NRA sanctioned matches


    NRA Official Rules for Rifle Silhouette Competition
    Black Powder Cartridge Rifle
    Cartridges must be loaded with black powder or Pyrodex only.
    ex. No smokeless powder in any quantity may be used.
    re: Blackhorn 209 ... http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/in...=6150.msg46266

    "Haag's findings were that Blackhorn 209, while basically nitrocellulose contained inclusions of potassium nitrite and sulphur, which may create potassium sulphate, possibly sulphur trioxide, or dioxide combining with water in the air form sulfuric acid. He concluded that there is potassium nitrite and elemental sulphur embedded in what is basically a nitrocellulose product"
    Regards
    John

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,423
    The bptr regulations say any substitute powder,,but there are a lot of places that bh209 is legal to use, and it does shoot extremely well. The real trick is to not use any water based cleaners, regular bore cleaners work alright, with Montana Extreme's own Cowboy blend working well, but their BH209 cleaner works extremely well..

    As revised Jan. 2011
    3.17 Ammunition - Ammunition may be fixed, breech seated or muzzle loaded. Only commercially
    manufactured sporting grade Black Powder or Black Powder substitute may be used for the entire powder charge.
    No smokeless powder in any quantity may be used. NOTE: Follow all manufacturer’s recommended guidelines
    Last edited by Don McDowell; 11-04-2014 at 07:19 PM.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,423
    AAnd bh209 will not go weak on you after you open the can the way the other subs do..
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    East Tn
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod View Post
    Pyrodex is sold by weight but loaded by volume. A pound canister of Pyrodex gives more shots than a pound canister of black powder. Shot for shot, it is cheaper than all but the most bargain priced black powder.

    The Pyrodex shooter doesn't have to resort to wiping between shots or blow tubing, because the fouling does not continue to build in the bore the way it does with black powder. Pyrodex P works well for me in small rounds like the .32 Long because it has enough upsetting power to slug up the hollow base boolit but doesn't leave the accuracy destroying mess in the barrel that the equivalent load of Black would leave. I've also used it in my .32 muzzleloader when I want to do more shooting and less wiping. I have a Garrett Sharps Carbine that seemed to thrive on Pyrodex CTG when that grade was available. I was sorry to see it go. It never needed compression that I could see. And no, it doesn't shoot better with "real" black powder. It may in future, with a lot of finagling, but that Pyrodex load was quick and easy. I'm not always in the mood for a "science project."

    Pyrodex has perchlorate in it to raise the ignition temperature. (This allowed it to be sold as a "flammable solid" back when Black Powder was classified as an "explosive.") The chloride salts left after firing are more liable to induce corrosion than the sulfides and oxides left by black powder, but the same timely cleanup regime that works for either will work for both with no corrosion troubles later. For people who take normal care in cleaning their guns, this is a prime nonissue. People who neglect their firearms will have the same problems down the road with either.

    Most shooting is for fun or sport, for hitting reasonable size targets at reasonable ranges. For this shooting, black powder substitutes can hold their own with anything else.

    I have absolutely no faith that this post, which has provided answers to the original poster's questions, will do anything to prevent the next "Why? WHY?? WhyOWhyOWhy????" repetition of the same stuff that has been said over and over already. The real question is "Why?" (do people who don't use blackpowder substitutes, and often have never even given them a reasonable trial, expend so much effort and bandwidth in their jihad against them) and "Why?" (are they so red-hot to come up with some magic rationalization that will induce total strangers to also avoid trying them.) I've never heard a cheese lover say Velveeta should be taken off the market or an aspirin user say nobody should use Tylenol because it's only a substitute. Only certain religionists and black powder shooters will have no other before them. "Why, Lisa?? Why, Why??" (Hand to brow.)
    Ok you gave reasons for choosing a sub over BP but my question was not whether or not to use a substitute powder but IF real BP is not used then why not use a smokeless "sub"? No fouling, no corrosion, etc and even cheaper than Pyrodex per shot, it's all of the reasons you gave for Pyrodex and a whole lot more.

  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    103
    Many people say that Pyrodex is more corrosive than Black Powder. It is corrosive but in my experience not as corrosive as Black and definitely not more corrosive. Still need to clean promptly. I have used Pyrodex and Triple Seven. You need to make sure the bullet is seated firmly. It is not suitable for flintlock's. It will work in cartridges but as stated black powder equivalent smokeless loads are an option. I have deer hunted with both Pyrodex and Black Powder. The deer don't seem to know the difference. Accuracy is comparable. I have supplies of both and used which ever suits me on a given day. Pyrodex is a lot easier to find and has no storage limits or quantity limits. To me both are viable options.

  11. #51
    Perm-Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    extreem northwest ne.
    Posts
    3,426
    pyrodex works very good in the flower bed, as good as most fertilizers, in a gun of any kind now days, never. its days are past.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
    dtknowles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana
    Posts
    3,111
    Judging from this thread, I think the OP needs to do his own testing and make his own decisions.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy brad925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Alberta Canada
    Posts
    234
    Lets try this on for size. Why are you shooting Black when you could shoot pyrodex. I can spend an afternoon on YouTube watching guys trying to figure out a way to get BP to do what pyrodex already does which is reduce fouling. I have used both bp and pyrodex as well as smokeless in my hiwall. All three shoot equally well. So much so i can't tell one group from the other. The one thing with the pyrodex i did like more than the other two especially the smokeless was the time it took to find a load that worked. Telling someone that its BP or nothing is like me telling someone if you drive a chev you might as well walk. Just my thought on it.
    Lean into 'er and let 'er buck!!!

  14. #54
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    East Tn
    Posts
    3,705
    No one said BP or nothing unless I missed something, I have to admit that most of the thread got a bit off kilter from the OP's question however. Anyway since you seem to have used all three types of powder I am asking why you would choose Pyrodex over a suitable smokeless? Just to be clear I have, several times in fact, pointed out that this is just out of curiosity and I am not insisting anyone choose any powder over another. I myself shoot smokeless often and in fact until not long ago I was saying I probably would never shoot BP in my cartridge rifles, too much hassle I thought so why bother? Reading about using real BP in these big single shot rifles got the best of me so I loaded up a few rounds to see what the fuss was all about, fuss indeed! This was just plain fun and opened up a whole new sport for me, I also discovered that the "fuss" over fouling, corrosion and cleaning of both cases and rifle was just part of what it's all about was actually a lot of "fuss" over nothing. Still there are times, depending on the situation, where smokeless is chosen over BP and this brings me to the question I have asked several times. Sure Pyrodex works and has an advantage over real BP due to less fouling but it has none of the attributes that we choose BP for in the first place, as I said before it loads, looks, shoots and smells different and some say it even sounds different plus most people seem to have good reason to consider it even more corrosive than real BP (although proper cleaning renders that a moot point) so it's obviously very different than BP. Smokeless offers all the advantages of Pyrodex vs BP with none of the drawbacks such as critical cleaning requirements and it all but eliminates corrosion problems with both cases and firearm, basically it is all the reasons for choosing Pyrodex as a sub but a whole lot more! So with Pyrodex offering few to none of the reasons for shooting real BP but all of the reasons a lot of folks choose not to I just can't help but wonder why not just shoot a BP equivalent smokeless load and avoid all the hassle? Of course smokeless is not traditional, it looks, loads, shoots and smells different than BP but then so does Pyrodex! Smokeless loads have all of the reasons for shooting a sub but none of the "fuss" of the sub or BP while Pyrodex offers few if any of the real reasons for shooting BP in the first place but still has all of the reasons a lot of people avoid shooting BP?

    Again I am just discussing reasons for why I choose smokeless sometimes when I choose to shoot a "sub" and I am not in any way trying to tell anyone they shouldn't be shooting what they find to be their definition of fun. I think what I have been asking is a legitimate question but it seems that most times when I ask someone who is a fan of Pyrodex, etc about why it is chosen over smokeless when BP is not going to be used the answer is usually just reasons for why the sub is chosen over BP!

    But then choosing either Pyrodex or smokeless cheats the shooter out of what the real BP sport is all about, NONE of the tradition, the pomp and that intoxicating smell can be experienced with either smokeless or any of the subs.

  15. #55
    Boolit Buddy brad925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Alberta Canada
    Posts
    234
    Don't get me wrong. I shoot smokeless 90% of the time but with reloading components availability the way they are its nice to have the options. I just feel that some paint a bad picture of pyrodex leading others to believe that it will ruin your gun before the end of the day. I guess to answer the original question i think pyrodex is fine. Clean your gun when your finished shooting and it will be fine.
    Lean into 'er and let 'er buck!!!

  16. #56
    Boolit Master ColColt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    2,167
    This past Tuesday I took the Browning 45-70 to the range along with 35 rounds all loaded with Swiss 1.5. I also took my custom 270 Winchester along for the ride with 20 rounds. Guess which one took the longest time to get clean, get the powder and copper fouling out?

    I run one or two wet 3" square patches down the bore of the 45-70 followed by 2-3 dry ones, clean the lube star off the crown, run an oily patch down the bore and chamber and voila, I'm done. Swiss burns cleaner in this rifle and the last dry patch looks as new. I'll spend 20+ minutes on the 270. I find it no chore to properly clean a BP rifle but a pain to clean a bolt action rifle after having shot 20 rounds with a case nearly full of H4831.
    NRA Patron Member

    Kids Are For People That Can't Have Dogs

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
    dtknowles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana
    Posts
    3,111
    Quote Originally Posted by oldred View Post
    No one said BP or nothing unless I missed something, I have to admit that most of the thread got a bit off kilter from the OP's question however. Anyway since you seem to have used all three types of powder I am asking why you would choose Pyrodex over a suitable smokeless? Just to be clear I have, several times in fact, pointed out that this is just out of curiosity and I am not insisting anyone choose any powder over another. I myself shoot smokeless often and in fact until not long ago I was saying I probably would never shoot BP in my cartridge rifles, too much hassle I thought so why bother? .........But then choosing either Pyrodex or smokeless cheats the shooter out of what the real BP sport is all about, NONE of the tradition, the pomp and that intoxicating smell can be experienced with either smokeless or any of the subs.
    I think it has been mentioned a couple times but finding a smokeless load that works is harder than getting a good load with Pyrodex. This is particularly true with double rifles. Smokeless powder in big black powder cases is a challenging load development task and often fillers are recommended but double rifles have been damaged when fillers have been used. Published load data from reliable sources is limited. Small changes (weight variations) in powder charge with smokeless have much bigger effect on performance (accuracy, pressure).

    Prefer less smoke, and less fouling and less cleaning but both barrels need to shoot to point of aim with the same ammo not create excessive pressure and produce reasonable groups. Black powder is the quickest way to get there but Pyrodex better in a couple ways. You said "But then choosing either Pyrodex or smokeless cheats the shooter out of what the real BP sport is all about, NONE of the tradition, the pomp and that intoxicating smell", none of that interests me.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
    GOPHER SLAYER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Cherry Valley ,Ca.
    Posts
    2,177
    After asking for opinions on Pyrodex when I started this thread and reading all the replies I feel I should make a few comments on the answers I got. I shoot more smokeless loads than I do BP. My favorite load with smokeless is 15 grains of Unique. It gives me 1235 to 1250 FPS if I use a little wad to hold the powder against the prime. Only 15 grains looks mighty puny in that big case and I do worry about ringing the chamber though. The argument about this rages on and opinion is split about 50/50. One problem with shooting unique is the fact that it is harder to find than black powder. I thought it would be nice to find something that would fill the case and you could buy it across the counter. As for clean up after shooting BP, it's a piece of cake, at least when you're talking abut the rifle. The case are another matter. I found the easiest method is dump the cases in a container of vinegar and dish washing soap. If you don't clean the cases after shooting BP they will quickly be covered in green mung. [southern word] I share the feelings of many people who have become addicted to shooting BP and I hate the fact that the powers that be are making it more difficult to enjoy. I took a trapdoor to the range up in the high desert recently and it created quite a lot of interest. Everyone got a kick out of the big cloud of white smoke. If others wish to shoot smokeless or Pyrodex in there big bore single shots it's fine with me. There is a video on you tube of Steve Grullo,[ hope I spelled his name right] shooting a steel buffalo painted white. The distance is over eight hundred yards. He is shooting a Sharps Borchardt chambered for some large black powder case and paper patched bullets. From that site you can click on to many black powder matches and just plain fun shooting. I never get tired of watching them. Well I have rambled on enough. I want to once again thank all of you who responded to my question about Pyrodex and I am going to give it a try.
    A GUN THAT'S COCKED AND UNLOADED AIN'T GOOD FOR NUTHIN'........... ROOSTER COGBURN

  19. #59
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    East Tn
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by GOPHER SLAYER View Post
    I use a little wad to hold the powder against the prime. Only 15 grains looks mighty puny in that big case and I do worry about ringing the chamber though.
    If you are talking about using a wad to hold the powder back against the primer leaving an air space between the wad/powder and the bullet then I too would worry about a ringed chamber, I would worry a LOT! Using a filler that completely fills the vacant space between powder and bullet base seems to work ok but everything I have come to understand is that a wad and air space is a real problem. Apparently what happens is that the wad becomes a lightweight projectile in front of the powder charge being fired, when it hits the base of the bullet it's as if the bullet is a bore obstruction to the oncoming wad and shock wave. Either a complete filler or just loose powder seems to be ok but that wad and air space is kind of scary. BTW, the Winchester factory 45/70 loads have quite a bit of air space and they don't use a filler or a wad, they just leave the powder loose in the case. The very commonly used AA5744 powder also leaves a lot of empty space in these big cases and that powder was primarily meant for that purpose, AA recommends no wads or fillers. At least that's my take on it hopefully others will step in with more opinions.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
    GOPHER SLAYER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Cherry Valley ,Ca.
    Posts
    2,177
    oldred, I have a box of Winchester 45-70 with 300 grain soft nose bullets. The info on the box states that the velocity is 1800 fps. I believe it. I fired one in a heavy barreled Siameze Mauser I have and it really coldcocked me. I talked Buckshot into firing two and the range master fired one. I braced myself and tried two more rounds. Others have helped to clear the brass. I have eight unfired. I just want the brass. I don't know what powder they put in the cases or how much but it is enough and I am confident there are no fillers between powder and bullet.. I wouldn't dream of shooting one of these rounds in a trapdoor. One of the well known black powder shooters [ I think it was Steve Garbe] wrote an article about using wads over smokeless and he says every rifle he examined so used had ringed chambers. Others say it isn't so.
    A GUN THAT'S COCKED AND UNLOADED AIN'T GOOD FOR NUTHIN'........... ROOSTER COGBURN

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check