Suprise and degection with 319295

[ohland]

Well, I fired up the Lee 4-20 and got to casting up some 319295. Miking them results in .320 - .321, so it appears that I might have to investigate Beagling for that extra .002 of an inch. My Dad will probably lube some up for his 32-40, which should be easy with the .321 H&I die.

[DonH]

I shoot a .32-40 and was pleased to come by one of the Ideal "319s". After casting a few and measuring them I was disappointed that they were barely .320". I have no idea what the idea was unless it was soft lead and BP to bump these slugs up.

[Green Frog]

Let's see, the first three numbers on the mould are three one nine, and Lyman cuts their moulds one or two thousandths large to allow for minimal sizing if you need to true them up. Three hundred and nineteen thousandths plus a couple gives... .320-.321"! There are several old Lyman/Ideal designs in the 321 series that will go up to about .323" and even some 322 and 323 series if you look for them. I don't know why you would be disappointed when the Lyman mould gave you what was promised. BTW, two observations about 32-40 (which I have shot more than any other center fire rifle caliber) are in order; first, .319-.321" is appropriate for many of the originals, such as my old Winchester high wall that shoots them very well, and second, if you add a little tin and/or antimony they will cast a smidge larger and be harder, so you can drive them a bit faster if that is your desire. JMHO, but from personal experience. Also, my Green Mountain 32-40 barrel and my 32 Dell (like a 32 Miller short) with a Douglas barrel both like bullets in the .319-321" range.

Froggie

[ohland]

Let's see, the first three numbers on the mould are three one nine, and Lyman cuts their moulds one or two thousandths large to allow for minimal sizing if you need to true them up. Froggie

Thank you, Captain Obvious! I was expecting .338, what a surprise....

In this case, the Lyman mold dropped just about what is the expected diameter. Goes to show you that it does happen....

I need to try casting at a more sedate temp, say 675-ish.

The old retrobate was having trouble with 321297s tipping at 1400 fps. He tried some of the 319295 squeezings at @1300 fps. Not single hole groups. The 319295 are @ .961 with GC, the 321297 are a little longer. When is this going to stabilize in a 32-40?

[DonH]

I don't know the exact number of the mold I have but the bullet wt. is a bit over 150 grains. When cast with my lead-tin alloy the bullet drops at .320". I will have to tinker. I bow to your experience Froggy!

[Green Frog]

Well, I was just wondering why you were dejected for getting what you asked for. Anyway, anybody with a smiling picture of a Britt can't be all bad, so let me mention a couple of good bullets you might want to hunt up. I've read somewhere (and experienced in my own guns) that a 321232 is good for 32-40. Mine runs about 170 grains with #2 alloy. I sized them to .319" for fixed ammo in my old high wall and they did pretty well. You might also look for the 321297 that runs about 185 grains with #2 alloy and a gas check. I used one for a while sans gas check to be legal in ASSRA matches, but later got a plain base 319-something or other in 185 grains and let the '297 go down the road. I also have a 31952 that casts about 200 grains in #2, and unlike some of these other moulds, it casts relatively large at about .321" (or did when I used it last.) Would you like a few samples of the '232 or the '52 (or both) next time I fire up the pot with the schuetzen alloy?

Regards,
Froggie

[ohland]

You might also look for the 321297 that runs about 185 grains with #2 alloy and a gas check. Froggie

The old retrobate was using a 321297 at .323, they are tipping at @ 1400 or so. What is up with that? This 32-40 is re-lined with a modern liner, about .316 / .320-ish. I had hoped the shorter 319295 would be easier to stabilize. What powders are you using? What twist? To me, the 170-184 grainers are middle of the pack for weight, and should not be overly twist-sensitive...

I would try to drown my troubles in drink, but they swim too well...

[7br]

Hey, Iffn you want to get rid of that nasty old mold, drop me a PM.

[Green Frog]

I start all of my 32-40 load development with light charges of 4759 (yeah, I know it's been discontinued and I'm bummed out. I'm down to about 5-6 pounds of it. ) My starting load in fixed ammo is somewhere around 13.2 grains or so, and that leaves lots of margin for a hotter charge. I've never chronographed my loads, but 13.6 seems to work well both in my original bbl and the Green Mountain. I also got real good results through a Douglas bbl I no longer own using a 200 gr Welch bullet and 14.6 grains of IMR 4227.

IIRC, the original twist that Winchester used for 32-40 was 1 in 16, but I think 1 in 14 shows up in some more modern barrels like my Grn Mtn. The early standard bullet for the cartridge is available pretty much unchanged as the Lyman 319247... it runs about 165 gr. You might also try the little 150 gr. mould for 319s, I forget what its numbers were... you'll have to look for a used one, of course. It's long discontinued. I still don't understand why the bullets you describe and their loads are so unstable.

Froggie

PS There's an Accurate #9 load that should work pretty well, but I'll have to look up the charge if you are interested.

[frnkeore]

Something is wrong with either your twist rate or your groove size. Both the 319295 and the 321297 WILL stabilize with a 16 twist and a bullet that fits the groove diameter. The 321297 is your best best for fit, the design as cast dia is .323 in #2 alloy, unless it's marked "U" then it should be .321. Or, you can Beagle that 295.

Check your twist rate

Slug your barrel, the bullet can't cast under groove size

Don't use any thing harder than #2 alloy, if your in the <1500 fps range, you don't need harder that 30/1

If it is indeed a 16 twist, you should be able to shoot a bullet at least 1.03 long down to the low 1300 fps range, w/o tiping.

I shoot a 1.11 long spitzer, in a Douglas .321 barrel at 1450 fps w/o tiping and have averaged 1.28 for 5 five shot groups at 200 yards in a match.

As Froggie noted, the early rifles had .319 grooves. My Ballard and Model 44 Stevens, both have .319 groove diameters for their 32/40 barrels.

Frank

[Green Frog]

Just a quick correction to my previous. Somewhere about the time I got going with the 321232 I started using a 25-1 mix of pure lead and tin for all of my rifle bullets. I think this gave me a good size out of the mould with little to no sizing needed to shoot as a fixed round or breech seated. My original high wall has a "salt and pepper" bore and I use it mainly to shoot reaction targets like steel Ram Bash animals at 200 yds and breakables at 100, so while I have accuracy appropriate to those, I don't have specific accuracy figures for it. My Green Mtn barrel hasn't been shot enough to really establish its accuracy potential, but I don't have any problems with leading or tipping. It's mounted on an original high wall action as well.

The Douglas barrel on my Peregrine bench gun (in 32 Dell) seems to like the bullet to be a little fatter and heavier, so I mostly shoot a tapered .321 (nominal) bullet running almost exactly 200 gr. with the same 25-1 alloy. Lube seems to have little effect... if it does the job, it does the job.

Froggie

[ohland]

I've been running purer and purer WW (just adding WW, no tin), I noticed that the bands are more rounded. I need to add some tin. The last loads were @ 16 gr of 4759. Since I am not pulling the Lūb handle, I'm not sure what is fully going on.

Twist... if it is 1:16 or faster, shouldn't I be able to handle longer bullets? (just asking...)

I will be working up to alternate casting of some 297 and 295 (both single cavity). Get my pot to stabilize about 675+, add about 1/4 pound of tin. Straight WW certainly is demanding... My forlorn hope is lower temps will help the diameter. Only need .001 to .002, not that much....

[7br]

I would definitely try beagling. I am 95% sure it will get you where you are going.

[frnkeore]

Cast at 750 - 780 deg.

14.0 - 14.5 of 4227 is a standard accuacy load for 32/40

What kind of rifle are you shooting these in?

Frank

[ohland]

Cast at 750 - 780 deg. 14.0 - 14.5 of 4227 is a standard accuacy load for 32/40 What kind of rifle are you shooting these in? Frank

Methinks the old retrobate is leaning to 4198. Rifle is a re-lined 32-40 1885 low-wall. It seems to be rolling some on the front bag, which is complicating things further. Dad said the group tightened up on Wednesday.