Hollywood gun shop senior turret

[Tracvision]

And the turret tool turret I had in my hands a few years ago was worn significantly more than the one in this photo. I don't recall any up and down play however. My point was... at least some of the turrets WILL wear more than you would think.

Alvarez,
Looking at a few different presses, including the one on my bench that has been in service for over 50 years, I have a few items to offer:
1) If the ball bearing in the tower is stainless, it probably didn't come from Mr Corcorans stock. My stock of 1/4" bearings are chrome plated steel. They wear, hopefully helping to preserve the press turret.
2) If the spring holding the ball in the tower is too long, the ball will not be able to COMPLETELY retract into the hole. If the ball can not completely retract into that hole, you will get abnormal wear. I have also seen undersized holes that do not allow the detent ball to fit into the hole without jamming.
One thing I have learned recently is that not all Hollywoods are Hollywoods. There were a few ( or more) businesses that had a go at making the Senior Turrets after the patents expired. Some were even produced by others before the patent expired in 1980. Some did it right, some did it wrong. I hope, with the help of many people on this forum, to be able to put that history together. Special thanks to Lubedude, Pressman, ReloaderFred..and many others that have been a great help in sorting this history out.

Harold
TEAM HOLLYWOOD

[W.R.Buchanan]

Harold: I fully understand you position and I don't want to either. However eventually someone will. Demand Creates a Vacuum and this is true of all things. Perfect example is ISIS rising up after we pulled out.

You can buy virtually every body part for a 55,56 or 57 Chevy This is because people like them and the existing original parts are starting to get scarce. There are countless other instances of people reproducing replicas of things once made that were once popular and are now commanding high prices due to scarcity.

At one time there was 50 outfits making Shelby Cobra Kits.

Just reproducing some of the small parts that wear out or get lost on these machines would be a good place to start. Supporting the machines is something that wouldn't require a large investment and is kind of what you are doing already with your inventory of NOS parts. As they get depleted you could make replacements.

Also when you get to the point where you are ready to pass this legacy on to the next guy, the more parts you have, the greater the value.

I'm sure that there will be plenty who are interested in carrying the torch on the next leg.

The thing about good machinery is that it is timeless. As long as people can make ammunition the Hollywood will be a desirable tool. I have stated here many times that I have never seen a worn out reloading tool of any kind, missing parts with no source for replacements is the only thing that will kill a product line.

If you do need any help making replacements don't hesitate to ask.

Randy

[Tracvision]

Harold: I fully understand you position and I don't want to either...snip...If you do need any help making replacements don't hesitate to ask.Randy

Randy, Very well said and thank you very much for the offer of help.
Harold
TEAM HOLLYWOOD

[W.R.Buchanan]

Guys: I have a set of Lachmiller 12 ga dies which I thought were used on a Hollywood Press. However they have 1 1/4" threads not the 1 1/2" threads everybody talks about. Are there bushings for the holes for these dies?

It is a three die set including a Sizer/Depriming die, a Wad Installing Die that I think doubles as the Primer and a Crimper. Are these related to Hollywood Turret Presses or something completely different?

They look exactly like the ones in the picture of the Turret Press with the purple turret in one of the previous posts.

Randy

[Tracvision]

Thanks for the info guys on the detent region. I'll take some photos of it in the next week and post them. I want to get this thing solid there isn't any slop in any of the stations when I am FL-Resizing or seating bullets.

Randy, Solid is a relative term. I assume you want the SENIOR TURRET like a rock when in the detent position. The Senior Turret will never be as solid in the detent as a Super. The super has two detent balls. One is on the outer edge of the large turret at the back of the main frame. When a Super locks in, you know it.
On the other hand, i can offer a very inexpensive solution , that may be even better than it was when new. Drill two more holes in the Base tower. One at 3 O'CLock and One at 9 O'clock. Use a machinists "F" sized bit sized 0.2570". This will allow the 1/4" ball to drop in the holes without binding. Now you will have 3 detent positions holding that turret in place. I have not tried it, but I don't see why it wont work. Make sure that all three balls ( 2 new and one old ) recess COMPLETELY into the holes easily. I like spring pressure set so the weight of the turret alone compresses the spring and ball to where the turret rests on the column. Otherwise you will continue to wear the underside of the turret. I'll bet MD could do that for you. I can supply new balls and springs. Let me know what you think. I may try it on my Turret.

Harold
TEAM HOLLYWOOD

[Pressman]

Randy your shotgun dies could very well have been used on a Hollywood. They along with Lachmiller, Herter's, RCBS and a few others all threaded their presses for 1-1/4"-18 tpi. Somewhere along the line the standard thread changed to 1-1/2-12tpi.
Why is another mystery that needs solving.

Ken

[MDphotographer]

I have made a jig for making turrets that is basically the top of the press but instead of having 1-3/4-8 thread it has 5/8-18 threads that use a washer on to bolt down turrets in the index holes while drill out the die holes. My jig has 8 index holes drilled out for the ball bearings and springs though I usually only use 4 holes. The press I have uses a 1/4 base index hole 5/8" deep the spring is .047 wire 1/4 diameter 9/16 long.This lets the ball set right on top of the spring but you can pluck it out with your hand. When you put a turret on mine the turret does NOT compress the spring. Tightening the cap compresses the spring so the turret sets on the 3/8" shelf of the cylinder.When you take the cap back off the turret still sits down but when you remove the turret the spring un-compress and pushes the ball out of the hole .

DO NOT drill the hole out bigger then 1/4" inch that would make the springs too small for the holes and when it is compressed the spring will blow out because the hole is too big.Plus you would then get slop in the index ball in the base/cylinder.

I have discussed with lube drilling more indexing holes in the base to aid solid indexing. When indexing on my jig using 4 springs and BBs the indexing is VERY positive you get 1/16 each way or less play left to right.HOWEVER...turning the turret is also MUCH harder. Also I believe a little play is needed so that the case will self align with the die ala a Forster Co-Ax. I can tell you from personal experience it is not a simple matter to drill these holes so that index and die holes align perfectly on a manual machine and having a little play in the indexing to help isnt a bad thing. The turrets from Hollywoood are cast turrets and they probably had the die holes set in the casting and then all they had to do was put it on a jig to drill out the indexing holes in the turret

In this picture you can see my jig with 8 holes. The round washer under the nut barely lets me bolt the turret down to the jig and have clearance to see the bit as it drill the indexing holes in the turret. I use a center drill then a 3/16 ball mill to make a dome hole then start a 13/64 drill bit as that seems the best diameter for the 1/4 ball bearing to index into. 7/32 is just a tad to big and dont get as strong an index from it.I drilled the bottom for a 1/2-13 thread so using a stud and T-nut I can bolt it to my mill table and also drilled and tapped for a 5/8-18 thread I can use a one side blank stud to use with a collet on my indexer.You can see the 1/8 holes in the bottom so I can push springs and ball bearings out if need be. To check alighnment on the holes I put 8 ball bearing on the index holes of a Hollywood Sr Turret and slide my jig down over it by hand with a couple of light taps the turret sat down fully on the jig but because they had no springs in the holes my BB's got stuck I have since sanded the inside of the holes so the balls wont get stuck

If you are going to drill your base for more indexing holes I would go with 4 so you have equal pressure on the base on both axis remember though that you will also get 4 times the index hole wear in the turret using that many BB's.I have also considered filing a small grove where the BB rides over the lip on the turret index holesgoing into and out of each hole to aid in turning the turret without hurting index lock up

[Tracvision]

Good write up MD. I do respectfully disagree on a few points. The 1/4" index ball will get stuck in a 1/4 " hole. The hole oversized to 0.257 ends that problem and there is no room left for slop. The 1/4" spring will ride very smooth in that diameter, as mine does, and will not bind or blow out. We are only enlarging .007. In addition, the hole does not need to be enlarged all the way to the bottom. I believe the bases originally had a few other 1/4" holes drilled ( oilers ) that also had to be enlarged. Later on, subsequent manufacturers stopped using the oilers because the holes were undersized. Not sure why they just didn't drill them out.
As to spring pressure, I believe it should be as little as possible to reduce wear. The idea of having a little slop ( if you will ) for self centering is probably the way it was designed.
If you want to put 4 holes equally spaced, you would have to eliminate the existing one, as the 6 o'clock position is the keyway. I would just move the 6 and 9 positions, one detent aft and make a triangle. Regardless, the turret was not designed to be supported in any manner by the detent ball.
I understand that some presses even have been seen with a ball in the shell holder carriage assembly instead of the key for alignment ( see pic ). This was not done by Hollywood. It was an after the fact fix for a company that didn't want to reproduce the proper part for the keyway.
Keep in mind, I am not trying to change or redesign HW's press. I just want to build them the way they were designed. I believe many of the existing issues arise from changes done after HW was no longer making the decisions.
Just my $0.02

Harold
TEAM HOLLYWOOD

[MDphotographer]

I didnt think about the keyway preventing a indexing hole at 6 oclock good point.A 1/4 BB will get stuck in a 1/4 hole that is rough with no spring it will not get stuck in a hole that is smooth and has a proper length and strength spring in it. I know I have one in my press and 8 on my jig.I have a Hollywood Joe press I know that.It is not a HW Gun Shop press but the spring and BB that came with it work very well indexing on any original turret or HW Joe turret I have put on it and one time when putting a shorter spring in and I could pull the BB out a magnet sucked it right out.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Randy your shotgun dies could very well have been used on a Hollywood. They along with Lachmiller, Herter's, RCBS and a few others all threaded their presses for 1-1/4"-18 tpi. Somewhere along the line the standard thread changed to 1-1/2-12tpi.
Why is another mystery that needs solving.

Ken

Ken: they very well could be 1 1/4-18 as I only put a ruler up to them, 16 and 18 would be hard to differentiate between. I'll check them on the comparator tomorrow and verify what they actually are. I think I did this when I got them a few years ago and noted that they were something weird.

I plan on selling these so if anyone is interested let me know.

Randy

[Tracvision]

MD,
Last night I couldn't get your picture of the of the jigs to come up. Seems to work today. Very impressive. As for the 1/4" hole with the 1/4" bearing. The bearing can deform slightly as it is soft steel. It will then get stuck. 7 thou seems to work nice. I grease things up pretty well also.
As for the Shell Holder Carrier having a bearing, I cant see why it wont work, but the unit was designed with a keyway for a key. Being more interested in the history, than the mechanics, I just want to document the history correctly. The patents show the original design fairly well.
Nice work on the jigs. If you re-index a base , I would like to hear the results. I think it would work for those that want to modify the press to have more positive locking turret.
What size bearing is used in your carrier?
Harold
TEAM HOLLYWOOD

[W.R.Buchanan]

Harold: I see some discrepancies in the dialog concerning the design on these machines. If you will allow me to interject my .02 on this subject maybe I can clear up some of the misinformation.

You guys need to understand that all of the guys that made these machines and worked there were former Aerospace Machinists and Toolmakers from the Aerospace Industry in the San Fernando Valley in California. In the 60's, and up until the late 80's, the SF Valley was the home of the Aerospace Industry and the pool of talent that was available was beyond comparison. That's why these machines were so good,,, They were designed and built by some of the best Machinists and Toolmakers that ever ran Manual Machinery.

However the point is "they were designed around manual machinery" and that is why there are many Jigs and Fixtures associated with them. Understanding those jigs and fixtures is key to understanding the machine.

My Main Point here is that they understood exactly how to design and make a very complex machine that would stay together virtually indefinitely. They built Jet Fighters and Jet Engines, and real live Rockets! The Hollywood Reloading Presses were not a big stretch for these guys. They didn't do anything "by Gosh and by Golly!

Really for a Detent Ball design for locating the Turret of the type you guys are bandying about, the hole carrying the ball should be drilled and then reamed to about .252-3, for use with a .250 ball.( about .002-.004 clearance for whatever size ball you are using.) This provides the ball with clearance to operate but has minimal slop. It is lubricated with thin oil to minimize crude build up. Simply drilling with a F drill will actually yield a hole that is larger than .257 and how much larger depends greatly on the actual point of the drill.

The ball for this application would be a standard .250 dia. ball bearing which are readily available individually from any bearing house or McMaster Carr. The balls are glass hard just like any other Ball Bearing or they would deform quickly.

The actual Detent hole would be drilled with a 60* center drill and would be close to .250 at the top of the hole as possible and all the same depth so that there is the same amount of pull coming out of the hole on each station. The shallower the angle of the hole the less locational force you have and the easier the ball will jump out of the hole. (Inclined Plane)

The actual contact point of the ball is actually a circle and it is down inside the tapered hole. Lead in and out ramps which develop during use are not a detriment to precision of location until they are deep enough that they become "well below the Locating Surface" in the detent hole.

The drill jig shown above looks to have holes that are smaller than the actual detent holes. This was/is standard practice since you would drill pilot holes undersize using the jig and then open them to final size as a second operation on a drill press.

The fixture that located the plunger hole in the base is the thing that would govern alignment of the Turret Holes to the Ram. If there was any slop built into the press for alignment, it would be in the shell holder itself as the Press would have been as close to zero slop as they could make it. I doubt anything left there that had more than a couple of thousandths clearance in the ram. Same holds true for the Turret. They were going for as much rigidity as possible,,, as rigidity is what governs lasting precision.

After all,,, you were paying for a Cadillac, and they were in the business of building Cadillac's.

I may be slightly off base on some of my assertions and without seeing some of the parts first hand and comparing them to the drawings I couldn't be 100% sure.(IE Reverse Engineering) However I learned my Craft from people like this in the 80's. My shop was originally in Ventura CA and that is about 50 miles from North Hollywood. Some of the shops that I used for the last 30+ years and still use today are in that area. There were literally hundreds of Machine Shops in the Valley that did every kind of specialty machine work known to man, and they were located there specifically to service the large Aerospace Contractors who were all located there at that time. CA stupidly encouraged most of them to leave with ridiculous regulations and taxes.

One of the hardest things about Reverse Engineering something is the fact that in order to do it right you must first learn how to think like the guys that preceded you. As I said I learned from this generation of guys, and even though some things do change, others remain the same.

Harold: you have been given a big puzzle with many pieces (all that stuff in the plastic bins)to piece together. I have done this many times and the key is to learn exactly what every single part does I would caution you to NOT THROW ANYTHING AWAY unless you know exactly what it is. This will help you avoid the dreaded "AHA moment," when you discover that you have tossed an important part because it didn't look like anything important.

Randy

[smokeywolf]

Nice write-up Randy. Definitely spot on about the .252-.253 reamer.
Seems our machining/designing careers were somewhat similar and followed a similar time frame. Not to derail the thread, but got an 80ish low hour HLV-H-EM; having it freshened up and DRO added ($26K)

smokeywolf

[W.R.Buchanan]

Smokey,, I'm looking for one right now!

Randy

[smokeywolf]

Smokey,, I'm looking for one right now!

Randy

If I were still looking, I'd be inquiring about this one.

http://www.rohnermachinery.com/lathes/0804.htm

smokeywolf

[W.R.Buchanan]

smokey: That is a nice one, somebody didn't get their moneys worth out of it for sure as it hasn't been used enough to even wear some of the paint. He referred to it as a "Barn Find."

Lots of tooling that the average guy isn't going to have with it. A full set of collets, chucks and the very important must have change gears to run metric threads.

I think they are a little proud at $22,500 but I'd be interested around $15K. It did have a threaded spindle nose which all of mine do so all my Spindle tooling would interchange. Kind of a big deal as they don't give any of that stuff away.

I don't really need the English/Metric capability but it would be nice to have as long as I didn't have to pay for it.

The biggest problem with nice machines is that the tool dealers are trying to get top dollar based on the current new price. That machine was made in the mid 90's.

Randy

Plenty of them out there I just have to find one that fits my budget.

[Forty5r]

WOW you guys rock. Gone for a few days and all this information shows up. I'm going to have to read through this a little at a time to digest everything. I don't have alot of experience working with metal.

Here are hopefully some better photos.









My depriming mod.

[Tracvision]

I'm just thinking out loud here, but I would like you guys to weigh in. There seems to be some turret wear issues relative to the detent holes. We have yet to determine if this is across the board or post Hollywood Gun Shop turrets. Regardless, I was thinking about an easy solution and found this. http://plasticballs.com/delrin.htm Delrin is very hard yet non-abrasive. What do you guys think.?


Harold
TEAM HOLLYWOOD

[smokeywolf]

Don't think delrin will hold up long enough to be practical.

If I were going to go with anything other than stainless or bearing steel, I think I'd be looking for balls in aluminum-bronze.

Delrin or Delrin AF would be more appropriate for use against aluminum. Teflon anodized aluminum also works well against standard anodized aluminum.

smokeywolf

[LUBEDUDE]

Harold, I'd talk to Mark/Snowshooze. He does some kind of heat treatment to delrin balls for Dillon 1050 presses. He says they are much harder than plain o' Delrin. How much? I never asked.