Inlines

[newton]

Inlines have the same "range" as round ball/maxi ball guns. Just depends on the guy shooting the gun and the quality of the gun itself. Not how the powder is ignited.

[newton]

Me thinks they set the seasons up to give hunters something to bicker about, aaaaaaaand it's working.

Good point. But I think it is more than that. You know it is too. It was to give people a semi disadvantage over being able to "pop" another round on the gun in case the first one missed.

Personally, for the sake of the deer, I'm glade newer technology was invinted and optics are allowed. I might not personally need them, but I bet they have made a difference in wounded versus recovered deer.

Sure, some would not want to hassle with non inline guns, but there are more than you think that would hunt with them if they decided to do away with them. Then what? Do people think that all the inline shooters would just quit? No, they would get a sidelock and hunt. And they would still take the same shots as they did before.

But, again, no one wants to dispute the fact that flintlocks are the original guns of choice. So why not just allow them? And why allow rifled guns? Smooth bores came first.

So yes, you are correct in one point star, it is something people like to argue about for sure. I simply say to each his own and just make it what it's called - muzzle loading guns only. Seems simple. Since "traditional" guns started that way. Even though there were a variety of different kinds of setups long before TC and the like came on the scene producing their guns....

[starmac]

I can understand some of the thinking that it should be limited to traditional sidelocks only, as it just seems that if you are going to use a muzzle loader it should look like a muzzle loader. Traditionalist guys have gotten laws past in several states, against sabots, pellets, scopes and so on, as far as I know not against inlines.
I think it is Missouri that now allows center fire pistols during the muzzle loader season. I think some states have done away with the seperate season all together.
Some self professed big wig tried getting a petition up and a lawsuit going against the state here to force them to allow the use of scopes. The way I understand it they came close to getting the season done completely away with.

We have to get certified in muzzle loaders to hunt the special hunts here anyway, and I am just hard headed enough to refuse to do so, so even if I use my sidelock, it will be in the general rifle season, which is fine by me.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i vote yes do they look like my Hawken no but they load the same

[Squeeze]

Do you show up at the rendezvous in a modern car/truck? or a horse and buggy? Does your house have electricity and indoor plumbing? Or is it a matter of I like this, so no other option should be available to anyone else, Technology and design improvements be damned. Did the mountain men of the 18-19'th century say, those hawkins are pure blasphemy! Im going to carry a blunderbuss, just like the laws meant us to. In the last century, we have gone from first auto, to man on the moon, and modern phones can make all the computations of the computer that watched over the first lunar mission, that took up about 2 rooms. The first man to fly was still alive when man first stepped foot on the moon. When someone "finds religion" suddenly everyone around him must think the same also. You cant be THAT, you must be THIS, like ME. Hey, do whatever makes you happy, just dont force it on me also. Choices and free enterprise competition make for good commerce, and healthy economy. Many rulers have tried ways of controlling total equality on their minions, As of yet, none have lasted long. The cultures may remain, but individuality, and evolution cannot be stopped.

[newton]

But do I consider their inlines "traditional"? Nope. I figure any muzzleloader that hit the market after about 1865 can't claim to be. But I don't think they should be banned from the ML season because they don't look like antiques.

This is what I don't understand. Maybe its just me, but I cannot see how anyone can put a date on it.

I guess that if the season was supposed to be called "Sidelock Season" then we could put a qualification on the look and action of the gun. But because its called traditional or muzzleloader, then you cannot stick a particular look to a gun. All you can do is put a specific type of weapon it is. And since flintlocks and sidelocks have two very different types of actions, and looks, then you have to put a specific on something. So, you put it on what matters the most. How it is loaded.

But I can see that it will never matter to those who view their particular gun as the most "traditional" weapon. Its just the way it is. It does do good in a way because it keeps those types of firearms around. We should never forget the lineage of how we came to what we have today.

However, that's just it. When we start looking down on other guns as not being "qualified" in the same sense as other guns, we are only kicking ourselves in the rear.

Inlines do not look like older guns. But neither do a lot of other sidelocks and flintlocks being used today. Do you kick out sidelocks and flintlocks that do not look like older guns? Inlines are traditional in the sense of their operation. How a gun looks, does not effect how they operate. Inlines operate the same as some of the most oldest guns there were - you put powder into the barrel from the front, you push a bullet down the barrel from the front, and you put some type of ignition source onto the rear - Flintlocks, Sidelocks, and Inlines all operate the same way.

[45-70bpcr]

With the sealed breech, almost absolute ignition, synthetic mossy oak stock, with stainless barrel, and illuminated BDC reticle scope, white pellets of some sort and plastic/copper sabots that shoot clover leaf 100 yd. groups no way can I call them traditional. I think they have their place and add single shot challenge during regular firearms season but not in the "traditional" seasons. For now PA still has the after Christmas flintlock only which I appreciate. So I voted No

[Anonym]

I voted "no" as well, even though I embrace both. For me, the "traditional sense" lends to nostalgia and a more primitive technology. I have sidelocks that shoot PRB (or conicals) with open sights and wooden stocks. They are not "Magnum" muzzleloaders, do not have sealed breaches, use shotgun primers, or plastic sabots around jacketed bullets. To me, that's "traditional", even though they are current manufacture. I enjoy the challenge and nostalgia of hunting with these, and they are my weapon of choice, even during firearm season.

I also own a stainless steel 209x50 Encore that will shoot 1" groups at 200 yards if I do my part. Yes, it is a "muzzleloader" as it is loaded from the muzzle, but it can take a "magnum" powder charge (even though I choose not to load above traditional charges), has a sealed breach, and uses a 209 shotgun primer for ignition. I also have a scope rail on it, even though I currently don't have it outfitted with a scope. This is what I choose to hunt with when weather is not so favorable - not because I don't appreciate the challenge of hunting with a traditional muzzleloader, but because I value the ethics of the harvest as well as the meat in the freezer.

To me, I like the fact that seasons are geared to allow hunters to challenge themselves without being at a "disadvantage" to other hunters. Regardless of which season it is, I'm a single-shot hunter because I enjoy the challenge. It is my choice to do so. But I also appreciate the fact that I can bow hunt when the deer aren't being shot at with firearms, which gives me more of an opportunity to succeed. There is a similar argument for muzzleloaders being separated from other firearms.

Sure, there are arguments as to whether crossbows or compound bows should be allowed with recurve/long bow hunters the same as whether or not inlines should be allowed with "traditional" muzzleloaders. In my state, we don't allow rifle hunting without restrictions on cartridge size and bullet diameter, but a firearm is a firearm whether it's a muzzloader, shotgun, rifle, single shot, or semi-automatic. Each part of the season is to cater to specific groups, and each group can choose the challenges they wish to pursue during each portion. It's not worth arguing about.

So no, to me the current manufacture of the "inline" design is not a muzzleloader in the "traditional sense".

[newton]

Do people view centerfire rifles in two different classes? Traditional and not traditional? Just curious. It made me think, does one guy see a 30-30 as a "traditional" centerfire rifle, and look at a 7mm Mag as a "modern" centerfire rifle?

[451whitworth]

I can understand some of the thinking that it should be limited to traditional sidelocks only, as it just seems that if you are going to use a muzzle loader it should look like a muzzle loader. Traditionalist guys have gotten laws past in several states, against sabots, pellets, scopes and so on, as far as I know not against inlines.
I think it is Missouri that now allows center fire pistols during the muzzle loader season. I think some states have done away with the seperate season all together.
Some self professed big wig tried getting a petition up and a lawsuit going against the state here to force them to allow the use of scopes. The way I understand it they came close to getting the season done completely away with.

We have to get certified in muzzle loaders to hunt the special hunts here anyway, and I am just hard headed enough to refuse to do so, so even if I use my sidelock, it will be in the general rifle season, which is fine by me.

Yes, Missouri no longer has a muzzleloader season. It's now called "alternative methods season" open to crossbows, ML'ers, centerfire handguns, spears, burmese tiger traps, etc. I personally have no problem with inlines, sabots, scopes in ML season. Their inclusion doesn't keep me from getting the game. But when anyone claims they offer no advantage, the same way those who push crossbow inclusion in archery season claim "it's the same thing", I think to myself, "don't pee down down my back and tell me it's raining".

[johnson1942]

i think a debate like this would make sense if their was a limited supply of deer out their. their isnt. their are a over abundace of deer most every where. even here. alot of deer died here last year of blue tongue and waisting sickness here in the midwest. . some how the deer here had a explosion of babies this summer and now i see as they are bunching up more than their ever was. in all the cities of n.dak and s.dak and nebraska their is a deer problem in their cities. they are even allowing qualified teens to shoot them with bow and arrow in some of these cities. again if we discourage inlines, then the deer will even be a bigger problem. i like side locks and thats what i build and shoot. what i like about inlines is the challange to modify what you do with them and become independent of the muzzleloader ammo companys and their high priced ammo. you can shoot loose powder in a inline. you can shoot a grease groove castbollit of a cast or swaged paperpatch bullet that you make your self. you can even make your own powder for it. you can even build your own custom inline like some and i do for the sidelocks. you can become independent of many things with a inline as you can with a side lock. it is a tool for independence as a sidelock is. 209 primers are still for me easy to get, they make me independent of haveing to look for the number 11/s.i have one very very traditional .50 cal side lock. it would fit well at a rondezvous or in a movie set of the middle 1800/s. except it is like a plain old car with a full blown hot rod engine under the hood. it has a shallow groove 1/28 twist barrel on it, 36 inches long. its loads very fast and easy and drives tacks with a 535 grain paperpatch bullet. its my hunting gun this dec for deer. we all live where their most likely is too many deer. we all want to be more independent, and we all want to get the most out of what we shoot. and if some one buys a inline just for the range and target shooting, then that person isnt infringeing on anybodys deer hunting. lets encourage each other and share information and have fun. two or more thinking brains are better than one in getting these guns to shoot well.

[Whiterabbit]

There is NOT an overabundance of deer where I live. If newton had his way, I will tell you what happens. You end up in a situation where hunting pressure makes game so wary that everyone becomes a long range hunter and brags of shooting their game from 500 yards away. Unless you have your own private ranch land (ie: I got mine, now they can't get theirs) you are effectively pushed out of the game unless you can hit a cantaloupe at 500 yards on the first shot. That's a tall order for a muzzleloader or archer.

If you live in a state that is overrun by deer, well, maybe you don't need the special seasons. Or maybe extend rifle. I don't have the answer for you. But I live in a state where less than 10% of the take happens on public lands. There is a reason for that.

Every other range trip these days I talk to someone sighting in a 338 lapua or 300 winmag they intend to hunt with. Carrying barrels of absurd diameter owned by individuals who get upset when they shoot over .5" at 100 yards. They have the disposable income to put lots of pressure on local populations, and there are not just handfulls of these people here.

[Powder Burn]

I choose all the above. It is a muzzleloader. It is not "traditional" (relative term), i.e. match lock, flintlock, side lock for ignition purposes. Who cares would also apply. I shoot everything from .58 Springfields to .45 flint locks to 50 cal inlines. I now hunt exclusively with inlines primarily do to my failing eyesight and they beat the heck out of shotgun slugs and allow me to customize my loads/boolets. Feel the same about bow hunting: started with long bow, then recurve, then compound and now I'm considering crossbow. I enjoy every aspect of deer hunting and I do not judge people on their hunting/shooting methods. It's all good but I can understand how some folks feel moving away from more primitive designs. Some of these responses are a riot to read and good points made on both sides of the fence. Keep your powder dry and blades sharp.

[starmac]

White rabbit, what state is it that is running short on deer??

I am not sure what you mean by people with disposable incomes putting lots of pressure on deer. The deer have never realised I was a poorboy. lol
I guess a disposable income here would help, as I would have to travel several hundred miles and take a boat ride to get to where there are deer, I just don't hunt them. lol

[Elkins45]

I have never seen a modern inline that had any relationship to the spirit of the old originals.

We must have a different understanding of the spirit of the originals because I think it was to build the best and most reliable rifle that current scientific knowledge and manufacturing technology could produce. It just so happens that the early state of technology wasn't all that great as compared to today.

Do you really think a hunter born in the 1700's would have turned up his nose at an optically sighted rifle with a reliable ignition system? I sincerely doubt it, and I also doubt that his friends would have ribbed him about his choice of weapon--I doubt there were many of his buddies at the colonial bar saying "A real man doesn't need a fancy gun, he can kill a deer with a stick."

My Savage 10MLII loads from the muzzle, so it's a muzzleloader. One shot, that's all, and it's not really any more accurate or powerful for any practical purpose than is my cap lock T/C Renegade. But the Savage doesn't require me to shoot it empty then take it apart and pour hot water down the barrel every evening after returning home. I used to hunt with the Renegade and had success. Now I hunt with the Savage and have success. I just have less cleaning to do. Both take just as much work to load.

We don't have a primitive hunting season in Kentucky. We have a muzzleloading season. Primitive is a relative term anyway: compared to an atlatl a matchlock rifle is high tech indeed.

FWIW I voted 'who cares'--I'm just on my lunch break and felt like responding. I really think it's one of those silly things we argue about because some people just need something to feel superior about.

[newton]

There is NOT an overabundance of deer where I live. If newton had his way, I will tell you what happens. You end up in a situation where hunting pressure makes game so wary that everyone becomes a long range hunter and brags of shooting their game from 500 yards away. Unless you have your own private ranch land (ie: I got mine, now they can't get theirs) you are effectively pushed out of the game unless you can hit a cantaloupe at 500 yards on the first shot. That's a tall order for a muzzleloader or archer.

If you live in a state that is overrun by deer, well, maybe you don't need the special seasons. Or maybe extend rifle. I don't have the answer for you. But I live in a state where less than 10% of the take happens on public lands. There is a reason for that.

Every other range trip these days I talk to someone sighting in a 338 lapua or 300 winmag they intend to hunt with. Carrying barrels of absurd diameter owned by individuals who get upset when they shoot over .5" at 100 yards. They have the disposable income to put lots of pressure on local populations, and there are not just handfulls of these people here.

That's a harsh statement. I did not find where "my way" was to eliminate the deer around places. We are talking about what is "traditional" and what is not. I simply argue that a muzzleloader....well....is a gun that is loaded from the muzzle. "Tradition" is simply a mans view of things. One person looks at something and says that's tradition, but it might not be the next guys tradition.

So I guess, it boils down to the "I have more of a right to hunt than you do" mentality huh? So we should have a season only for those who use homemade bows, then long bows, then compounds, then crossbows, then smoothbore muskets, then matchlocks, then flintlocks, then sidelocks, then older rifles, then newer rifles, then the newest rifles.....

Come on. This is ridiculous. A muzzleloader, no matter what its mode of operation, has just as much accuracy and distance potential as the next muzzleloader. Just because you cannot shoot one as well as the next, or that one guy makes his easier to shoot, does not make it better or worse. Just makes it the way they want it. And it dang sure does not mean the deer are going to be wipped out.

That's like saying we should all turn our guns into the government so that we will stop all the crime that takes place. Duh......

Putting a scope on a gun does not make it more accurate. It simply makes the person shooting better able to see the target. Hmmmm........ Yea, I guess that would be a bad thing when it comes to harvesting game huh......NOT.

[starmac]

Now I have a real thinker here. My inlines have wood stocks, blued barrels, use #11 caps and can't even be converted over to the 209's like a sidelock can. They have iron sites that are no better than my sidelock, actually because of the shorter barrel, not as good. They use the same powder, (matter of choice) as my sidelock. It is short barrel, oddball twist, and takes more work to find what it shoots compared to the sidelock. It takes a little more work, and an allen wrench and a screwdriver to properly clean it. You have to use a ramrod to load it and only from the muzzle.

I wonder if it is a real muzzle loader???

[newton]

We don't have a primitive hunting season in Kentucky. We have a muzzleloading season. Primitive is a relative term anyway: compared to an atlatl a matchlock rifle is high tech indeed.

FWIW I voted 'who cares'--I'm just on my lunch break and felt like responding. I really think it's one of those silly things we argue about because some people just need something to feel superior about.

I think you hit the nail on the head as to why people like to bring this kind of topic up.

Yes, I have killed deer with my sidelock. They died the same way and got ate the same way the deer I shoot with my inline do.

But I still have X amount of deer that my local game and fish say that I can take. I stay within that and trust they are managing the deer well. Our season is only so long. If I do not take a deer with my muzzleloader, then I do with archery, or I do with rifle.

To me, its not just about what I am carrying in my hands. Its the whole hunt, and harvest.

[newton]

Now I have a real thinker here. My inlines have wood stocks, blued barrels, use #11 caps and can't even be converted over to the 209's like a sidelock can. They have iron sites that are no better than my sidelock, actually because of the shorter barrel, not as good. They use the same powder, (matter of choice) as my sidelock. It is short barrel, oddball twist, and takes more work to find what it shoots compared to the sidelock. It takes a little more work, and an allen wrench and a screwdriver to properly clean it. You have to use a ramrod to load it and only from the muzzle.

I wonder if it is a real muzzle loader???

Its a real muzzleloader, but according to the original question is it traditional? I would say its traditional because of the method for which it has to be loaded. That's what separates gun "species" for lack of a better term. It might not be traditional "looking", but the "look" of sidelocks we have today are only what we consider traditional looking because of the mass volume they were produced in the last 100 years, because they were the easiest....lol....ones to make. It does NOT mean that they look the same as the old rifles that were used for ages before that. In fact, if you were to go to a historical rifle museum you would find old guns that looked pretty strange indeed. Sure, the sidelocks have a lot in common with the guns of years gone by, but aside from putting optics(which some people did) on inlines, and the material they are made of, you would find guns that looked like them made years ago.

Advancements have made may improvements in the guns. But they are loaded and shot in the same tradition as the ones that were hundreds of years ago.

[Whiterabbit]

That's a harsh statement. I did not find where "my way" was to eliminate the deer around places.

I see that my statement was poorly worded, I should apologise. What I intended to communicate, but did so poorly, was to bring up the idea you had specifically agreed with: that it was not a bad idea to lump everyone together, rifle, shotgun, muzzle, and archers for one season, let it be a freeforall. And to suggest what will happen as a direct result of implementing that policy.

It was not my intention to suggest that such a policy would be doing things "your way".

So again, sorry.