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  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    I would think that with a bit of fiddling around that Brooks bullet a load could be found that would be capable of gong match accuracy with just a blow tube. And possibly even sillouette's given that you would have a bit of time between the strings of 5 to wipe the barrel clean.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  2. #22
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    BR,
    I have not been to Quigley so i cannot comment on that format, but I do shoot Silhouette and Long Range exclusively with paper patches. I have done this quite a bit and tried many things. Where I have a little more time, wiping with 2 damp and 1 dry arsenal patch will be quick enough and will give you the best accuracy. Some use a brush on a Delrin rod for this, but I find that a simple delrin jag is much better because the patch falls off easier and more reliably. You do not want a patch to come off half way back down the bore. You will do much better if you go with straight water rather than a mix of water and soluble oil or antifreeze or MOS, etc etc.

    For faster shooting, you need something else. No one has ever done well with paper patches at silhouette using only patches. It is too slow. You need your bore adequately clean in one pass of the rod through the bore. What works well in this game may work well at the Q, but I've never been there so that's just a guess on my part.

    So, what's faster? Well, one damp patch or one dry patch has been tried by many. And both have failed. Two passes with different patches takes too long and it too fails. The solution is to use some sort of bore "critter". These could be Bore Pigs, Bore Weasels, Bore Dogs, and a host of others that are spin-offs of the original Fisher brush from the 19th century. I prefer the first and you can buy them right here: http://shootingbums.org/TexasBorePigs/ they come in bronze bristles or nylon bristles (the latter will last much longer) and pistol length or the longer rifle length (again I prefer the latter). I have used these for many many years. I now make my own, slightly modified from what is shown on the website. They are not cheap, but they are worth double what you pay for them.

    Anyway, the routine for faster shooting using these is the following:
    Keep the bore critters in a tupperware container with just plain tap water. when it comes time to use them, take out a handful and flick the water off of them and lay them on the top of the container next to you. Have a bag of patches, or better, a Paul Huard Patch Poppers (a patch dispenser for arsenal patches that cannot be beat) right next to the pile of bore critters.

    Immediately after the shot, shuck the empty brass and insert a bore gritter into the chamber with one's thumb, pushing it in as far as easily possible. Grab a single dry patch from the patch dispenser, and stick it behind the bore critter also pushing it forward into the beginnings of the chamber. Then push the dry patch and pig through the barrel with a delrin rod tipped with a delrin jag (not a brush!). Let both the critter and the patch fall to a blanket below the rifle's muzzle and retract the rod.

    The rifle is now ready to load and fire. If patches, critters, cartridges, and rod are laid out carefully before the relay begins, this method will be as fast or faster than any blow tuber. Fast is not better in and of itself of course, but having time to spend on an extra sighter or three, or to sit on the wind for a moment or two, is always nice in silhouette. After doing this for one match, you will not feel rushed at all.

    I could use bore critters + dry patch at long range was well, where normally I wipe. Extra time in long range is an advantage there as well, but after quite a bit of testing, I have found the wiping method to be just slightly more accurate than the bore pigs + dry patch, and at long range, that extra 1/2 minute or so of accuracy is worth the extra minute I lose on the clock over a 10 shot string for score, so I wipe at long range while I use the bore pigs as silhouette.

    These methods can win any match against any grease groove bullet and fouling management system. They are the only consistently successful methods in use now. That's not to say someone won't invent something better, but it hasn't happened yet.

    You do not need or want oils or anything but water in the wiping/bore critter solution, and never use lube in the the cartridges (for target shooting) or on the paper patches. These will only cause problems, not fix them.

    Since you live in Southern California, maybe you got to see Al Sledge doing exactly this last weekend. If not, look him up and he can show you how it is done.

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hi Brent-Look'n at the pictures in your link.
    Is that Scotchbrite used on back end of those brushes??
    LG
    Hav'n you along-Is like lose'n 2 good men

  4. #24
    Boolit Bub
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    yes it is. Far more important, however, is the rubber gasket/washer.

  5. #25
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    Thanks, Brent, for the detailed advice. I read your web page back when you and Orville Loomer were about the only people working with these boolits and I appreciate your efforts. All you guys working in this area probably saved me 10 or 15 lbs powder with your careful experiments and documentation.

    I have the Az Sharpshooter Delrin rod, but did drill the end for a holder for a brush or swab. I'd been using it as-is with the patches sized to fit fairly tightly. Pushing the patch through slowly seems to moisten more gunk and loosen it quicker, but eventually the time lost is better saved by another patch. The nylon brush on the end does allow a longer patch to be used without jamming in the barrel, which seems to take up more fouling per patch.

    The drying does seem critical as well. One dry patch (I use squares of old cotton gym socks) seems to dry the bore enough for the next shot, but I do notice my brass seems to lengthen faster with PP shooting than with GG boolits. I've found firing a shot with any water left in the chamber will yank the case in half. That paper seems to grip the case mouth hard as it is driven out by the powder gas.

    I was wondering about the Texas Bore Pigs--trying to figure if the extra moisture they would hold would just squeeze out into the action as the thing was pushed into the chamber or whether it would squeeze out in the bore where it is needed when pushed through. That seems to be the tradeoff with wet patches as well--with a fat enough cleaning rod to push the patch against the bore tightly enough to for scrubbing action, much of the liquid comes out into the action as the patch is inserted. I'll check the site out and see if I can afford a handful.

    Maybe a built up stack of rubber washers and felt discs, spring loaded so it takes a healthy push to squeeze the liquid out, (i.e., once the thing is safely in the barrel) would work. I looked through my references for the Fisher Brush and found many mentions, but I could swear I saw a woodcut illustration of one somewhere. Couldn't find it when I needed it though.

    I guess if everything is consistent, a programmed cleaning method would work, but so far, if I see that the last wet patch is more than slightly gray, especially if it has a serious black ring around the front, it's time to vary the routine and clean some more. Mostly, though, it's three wets and one dry at present.

    I guess the differences in procedure that some of you have are things that work for you and your individual rifles. Maybe it's like Kipling said: "There are four-and-twenty ways to indict tribal lays, and each and every one of them is right."

    I hope some of the stuff I'm learning with this rifle will translate to the next one I try to get to work with these boolits. I have a Pedersoli Long Range that's been pooched out to .45-2.6" that is crying out for a PP load.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeRoy.Beans View Post
    yes it is. Far more important, however, is the rubber gasket/washer.
    Really not sure, that I'd want to be push'n Scotchbrite down my bore after each shot.
    LG
    Hav'n you along-Is like lose'n 2 good men

  7. #27
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    Lumpy, you worry too much. I've done it more times than probably anyone out there. My rifles are shooting better this year than they ever have.

    BR, drying is critical. And that is why the washer on the end of a bore pig is the most important part. Your wiping rod will work just fine. Mine is the same except that I screw on a Glenn Fewless jag that has a reverse taper. This is not rocket science so don't over think this just a good, flexible rod with a normal jag and a 2" arsenal patch is what you need. Nothing special. If you want to try making your own bore critters have at it. But I will say that I've seen a lot of contraptions and not one of them has workedworth a hoot. Some of them have been mighty carefully engineered too. So, you might come up with one, but you might not. Odds are the latter.

    I think you will find a woodcut of the Fisher brush in Ned Robert's 1st book, but I'm not sure. I know I've seen it somewhere too. But the true Fisher brush isn't necessarily the answer either. Those guys had lots of time to wipe and dry, and their games were different in other respects too. So, personally, I would recommend starting with what is known to work. This isn't individual rifle specific either. Everyone that has adopted these methods have met with success. They will work on your rifles.

    As for water in the action. I'm going to say don't worry about that. Check out my rifles that have been doing this for umpteen years and you won't find any corrosion or problems with them. They are custom rifles and I spent boatloads of money building them. So, I am not going to do anything that harms them in the slightest. Every year, I pull them apart and clean the block and sometimes the trigger groups, and every year, they are just as good as new and we continue on. I know that this might sound pretty odd to you, but try it. You will find it works just exactly as advertised.

    Again, your being in S. California puts you within range of Al Sledge. You would do well to find him and see what he is doing - albeit he just started this past weekend.


    Paper patch in a 2.6 is an interesting beast. I have done that along with the 2.4 for many years before I smartened up and built my two custom 2.1s. That 2.6 will take 107 grs of powder to hold up the bullet properly. You don't need to spend 107 grs with every shot. The 2.6 is relegated to hunting only, and not often at that. Just no need for that much powder.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master semtav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod View Post
    The drying does seem critical as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    BR, drying is critical.
    Is it critical for accuracy or just for the chamber area to reduce possibility of case stretching.

    My current regime in a BPCR 45-90 shooting patched to groove bullets is two damp patches followed by a pistol length rod with a nylon brush and a dry patch to dry the chamber area only. Had been using 10-1 cutting oil mixture but started experimenting with windshield washer fluid for the winter shoot and didn't see any difference in accuracy.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Semtav, with me it's keeping absolute consistency of conditions in the barrel as well as having the dry chamber to keep from tearing up cases. The heat we have out here would keep a bore from having any consistent level of moisture from shot to shot, or from end to end, for that matter. I don't have boolits of such diameter to allow groove diameter paper patching, so I've never tried them and can't comment on how moisture would affect accuracy there.

    Brent, a friend up here used to shoot with Al Sledge at Pala, and is trying to get us connected.

  10. #30
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    semtav, it is for accuracy. Case stretching simply does not become an issue with either wiping regime.

    I have shot groove diameter long ago, and just yesterday, I ordered a new custom mould for a groove diameter bullet that will be shot dirty. The issue of dryness is the same for either. Before the bullet leaves the case, it IS groove diameter regardless of what diameter it started at.

    BR, if you get a chance to meet up with Al, check out the bore pigs I just made for him. He has a couple dozen of them.

  11. #31
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpy grits View Post
    Been to the "Q"-Mr Lee sure puts on a fine event!
    Even better if you have an RV to camp at the range.
    Foul'n control from the "Q", to our desert, is apples to oranges.
    What's your load and alloy? You using a grease-cookie.
    Because of arthritis in my right hand. I had to go back to GG bullets.
    Run a PJ #45001 C'moor at 30:1 in my Shiloh #1, .45-90 w/30" hvy bbl.
    Run 80gns of 3F Goex in annealed Starline cases.
    That 600yd plate at RC can be tricky with it stuck back in that corner.
    I shoot with the cowboy club there.
    LG
    I like these little yellow bouncing balls
    LG If I had one of these new fangled digital cameras I would take a picture of my old Swedish arthritis bent fingers That is not a good excuse I shoot patched boolits

  12. #32
    In Remembrance
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    Quote Originally Posted by semtav View Post
    two damp patches followed by a pistol length rod with a nylon brush and a dry patch to dry the chamber area only.
    Me, too.
    And, I also shoot a 45/90 with patched to groove bullets.

    My cases are stretched to actual chamber depth, and they never grow.
    Perhaps that's because the head of the case is against the breech face when the round fires.

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    I tried varying the patch thickness on the Hoch 500 gr .444 boolit yesterday. The cartridges seated easily but couldn't stay on to the 600 yard target. Went to 300 yards on a paper target and only hit it three times, at random. A little leading showed on the cleaning patches, and a vertical line of 3 hits on paper, with a couple more who knows where was the result. A recovered boolit showed only faint rifling marks. Maybe it needs to be slightly softer than the longer boolits with the more tapered noses.

    The Hoch boolit continues to be "the child left behind."

    Took the last 13 cartridges home, pulled the Hoch boolits and inserted the Brooks 550 grainers, patched as before with erasable bond paper. Today I taped up yesterday's holes in the target, set it back up at 300 and fired this group.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That one in the white on the lower left may have been from an insufficiently dry bore. Also, I was still seeing a tiny splinter of lead now and again from yesterday's efforts. That gradually cleared to nothing in the course of these shots. Some of the patches had crinkled a little when I inserted the new boolits into the shells. I straightened the paper out as best I could; I don't think it was torn.

    It was not as easy centering the red 200 yard Shuetzen target in my aperture at 300 yards on an overcast day as it is a black square on a buff background in brighter light, but given the reconstituted ammo and the gloomy day, I'm pretty pleased. The group is 6-1/4" vertical by 8-1/2" horizontal. Without the one in the white, the group would be 5-3/4' vertical, 7" horizontal.

    Even with the off shots, one can see what chance a herd of buffalo would have against someone armed with one of these outfits.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod View Post

    The Hoch boolit continues to be "the child left behind."
    .
    For some reason, i have never heard of anyone doing well with Hoch bullets and generally, quite the opposite. I have one for a .38-55 that does not shoot well either. It looks fine though.

    Have you gathered up your patches and looked at them closely? Your post makes me wonder if you have some gas cutting that might be burning through the patches in the grooves. That would produce leading.

    Not sure what your wad is, but a stiff, thick wad is generally a good thing with bore diameter bullets. You should not need to be softer than 16:1.

    Keep at it, you are zeroing in.

  15. #35
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    BrentD,

    The Hoch slug is on the left, with the Brooks and KAL proceeding to the right. It casts at about 500 grains, quite a bit lighter than the other two.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Maybe it would do better in the 22-inch rifling twists that the old guns had. The mould is dated 1972, IIRC. That was well before the first BPCR Silhouette Match and the advanced developments that followed.

    The patch fragments I could find were shredded fairly well. A few larger "inside" pieces were there, but not many. The same hardness boolit at least hit the target at 600 yards last time, when it was patched with the K&E graph paper, which seems to be brittle enough to shred to confetti. Boolits I found in the berm had at least their rear sections well rifled. This might be as good as it gets with that mould, although I haven't tried finer grain powders or other wad combinations. Fortunately, the other two seem to be doing much better. I'll concentrate on those for a while.

    I use a 0.030" cork wad. It's pretty soft. I could try harder materials and see what happens.

    Yes, the path of scientific progress doesn't always follow that y=mx+b straight line. And I do have my "on" and "off" days as a shooter, no doubt.

  16. #36
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    It's just a guess on my part, but that Hoch is way too blunt. That puts too much pressure on the nose and the base tries to pass it by. Paper patch bullets are pretty sensitive to this, having no groove drag to straighten them out. If you shot that bullet at 1000 yds target half of them wouldn't make it within 200 yds of the target, dropping low in the dirt.

    I would rate all of those bullets too blunt, but the Hoch is over the top so.

    When I look for patch material it is always shredded to some degree. What I want to see specifically is whether the edges of the paper are sliced by the rifling or if they look rough and more like the paper was torn than cut. If it looks like the former, then i would be suspicious of gas cutting. This is somewhat tricky to find because, if you are the edge of having a good seal, it won't happen all the time. shooting over snow, albeit the same color as the paper, sometimes makes it easier to find the darn things.

    Brent

  17. #37
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    BrentD,

    The shreds are typically longitudinal, and about the width of a groove and land combination. Sometimes I see more or less of a circle of the part folded over the base, and it looks cleanly snipped off the rest of the patch. Thicker patches, or patches made of less brittle paper, give the thin shreds off the outside wrap, with the inside wrap more or less whole, though imprinted with the rifling marks. In that case, the part folded over the base is still attached to the inside wrap. I don't see soot or smoke damage or tears that would indicate some kind of blow by. I've seen such in muzzleloader cloth patches, but that might not be the same. I haven't seen the little circle of paper left in the chamber for quite a while.

    Can't rely on a snowstorm around this place. It's happened, but rarely, and even more rarely stays on the ground. No grass or anything either to show things up, just a litter of gravel, busted clay pigeons and steel case shells.

    I'm trading E-mails with Al Sledge on our various trials, tribulations and experiments. Thanks for for putting me on to him. He's obviously be working with them for quite a while.

    Hope your holidays are happy, and thanks for your help.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Whether they be in strips or larger piece of the inner wrap, this is what you DO NOT want to see.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    strips need to be neatly cut.

    finding the base, fold-over is very common. That seems to be the easiest part to find for some reason.


    Al is somewhat new to paper patches. He took a stab at it a few years ago with his own bullet design that did not work out well at all. I finally persuaded him to try again with a barrel I found for him and a bullet mould I had lying about. He is liking this second attempt much better, but he is new to it except for putting up with me at Raton and Phoenix for years.

    Good luck and let me know how it goes.

    Brent

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    It's just a guess on my part, but that Hoch is way too blunt. That puts too much pressure on the nose and the base tries to pass it by. Paper patch bullets are pretty sensitive to this, having no groove drag to straighten them out. If you shot that bullet at 1000 yds target half of them wouldn't make it within 200 yds of the target, dropping low in the dirt.

    I would rate all of those bullets too blunt, but the Hoch is over the top so.

    When I look for patch material it is always shredded to some degree. What I want to see specifically is whether the edges of the paper are sliced by the rifling or if they look rough and more like the paper was torn than cut. If it looks like the former, then i would be suspicious of gas cutting. This is somewhat tricky to find because, if you are the edge of having a good seal, it won't happen all the time. shooting over snow, albeit the same color as the paper, sometimes makes it easier to find the darn things.

    Brent
    Brent,
    It's pretty much the opposite the nose gets setback more then the base gets pushed forward.

  20. #40
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    The opposite of what? I'm not disagreeing that obduration happens. But that Hoch is too blunt to work out of an 18 twist at long and even intermediate range. It might be fine on pigs and chickens, but no more than that.

    And nothing is pushing the nose backwards. It's all about the base coming forward faster than the nose wants to accomodate.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check