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Thread: By George...

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    By George...

    I think I've got it!
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    Out with my Shiloh #3 in 45-70. Glorious day, no wind at all for starters. First five shots I thought did pretty good at 600 yards. So I decided to push things for a 10-shot group, even though the wind was starting up. I got kind of "concerned" when the shot to the right made its appearance.
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    I decided to "anticipate" the wind on the last shot and it missed the target completely. Ah well, that sort of move is kind of my "trademark" anyway. Now that "salesmen" are "marketers," I guess I should say it's my "branding element."

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    Steve Brooks 550-gr Original Postell, 0.440" nominal diameter, cast at 8-9 BHN, wrapped dry with 0.0015" erasable bond paper. Federal GMM large pistol primer, punched over primer wad, 80 gr Swiss 1Fg, 0.030" cork wad, 0.250" compression, Lyman taper crimp. And a ridiculous amount of cleaning (8 passes) between shots with NAPA oil/water and Ballistol/water patches with one dry patch at the end. Not ready for Prime Time yet, but the concept has been proofed. Need to get the cleaning time down for the other competitors' sake. The 9 shots went into 11-5/8" vertical x 18" horizontal; I'm pretty happy when I can get the grease groove boolits shooting under 2 MOA. I was trying to eliminate another shot drifting to the right on the last shot. Wish I could call that one back and do it over!

    But when I started, I couldn't hit the 400-yard target more than three times in ten shots, so I guess progress has been made.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Nice shootin!!
    Every shot you get in life counts

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Were you shooting at the Pala range? Wind comes up like it does at our range in Dulzura between 11 and noon generally and then dies off about 3:00 or so. Have you tried a blow tube only for 5 shots or blowing and then wiping with a wet Balistol patch and double side a dry on.

    Southern CA is similar to AZ, NV and NM in that the air is very dry and the fouling can get dry and hard very fast! When I was starting out 5 or 6 years ago Doug Knoell said a good healthy puff of moist breath (5 or 6) is good for every 5 shots or each relay. At some matches there is not enough time to wipe that much. I wipe my muzzle loader each shot since I can't get a blow tube in the breech.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    Your shoot'n at Ridgecrest-'rite'??
    LG
    Hav'n you along-Is like lose'n 2 good men

  5. #5
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    Yes, this is Ridgecrest, "where the wind never stops." Especially when the word "shooting" comes up in conversation. We've been lucky this fall with several stretches of calm mornings. They are almost as rare as rain.

    I was at 300 yards wiping two wet patches and one dry. Worked fine for maybe 15 shots and then things started going wild. I cleaned the rifle good before going to 600 and then figured rather than waste any shots, I'd clean the barrel between each shot like I was going to put the gun away (except for the last one being dry), and everything kind of fell into place. I imagine there is some golden mean where I could go for 5 or 8 shots with a lick and a promise before having to do something drastic, but I haven't worked it out yet.

    A guy at the Quigley this year was doing really well with paper patch bullets. He said he used Arsenal patches with 10% NAPA water soluble oil, two wet patches and a dry one, between shots. He showed me a wet patch; it was barely damp, just enough to feel cool in the breeze. I bought a bunch of Arsenal patches up there and made some up with the NAPA/water emulsion that were perhaps a little damper than his, but very short of dripping wet. After ten or fifteen shots, it seemed the fouling built up beyond the ability of the patches to handle it. The first patch had what looked like black splinters of fouling. then later patches would be black, then charcoal gray. The barrel felt smooth as the last patches were pushed through, and looked shiny afterwards, as far as I could see. But the last 5 shots at 300 yards only registered 2 on the paper, over a foot apart. A patch almost dripping wet with Ballistol/water got a lot more gunk out of the "cleaned" barrel, and, after drying, things settled back down. The Arsenal patches I got were the Large Size; too big, so I cut them in half, fold the halves over and use all four surfaces. They're tight in the barrel without being too tight. Two of those halves, eight surfaces, then a dry patch, seems to work. I'm going to wet them down good next time.

    My .32 muzzle loader seems to shoot well with just a damp patch down the bore between shots, as Dutch Schoultze recommended. Not cleaning, just fouling control, keeping it down to a given level. This cartridge rifle seems to prefer operating-room cleanliness. Ned Roberts used to describe patched bullet shooting as "a lot of work for a little shooting," and I think he had a point.

    But now that I can see what is possible, I should be able to find out where I can economize on the cleaning.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    Been to the "Q"-Mr Lee sure puts on a fine event!
    Even better if you have an RV to camp at the range.
    Foul'n control from the "Q", to our desert, is apples to oranges.
    What's your load and alloy? You using a grease-cookie.
    Because of arthritis in my right hand. I had to go back to GG bullets.
    Run a PJ #45001 C'moor at 30:1 in my Shiloh #1, .45-90 w/30" hvy bbl.
    Run 80gns of 3F Goex in annealed Starline cases.
    That 600yd plate at RC can be tricky with it stuck back in that corner.
    I shoot with the cowboy club there.
    LG
    Hav'n you along-Is like lose'n 2 good men

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Couple of suggestions that may help your accuracy quest.
    1. dump the ballistol it does nothing that the NAPA oil and water isn't already doing.
    2. leave the arsenal patches for something better to do, try some 2 1/2 inch cotton patches run thru the bore on a nylon brush
    3. scrap the crimp on the cases, and be sure to chamfer the inside of the case mouths.
    4. Get the bullet weight down closer to 500 grs, the 45-70 works much better with bullets from 480-520 grs than it does with heavier bullets.
    5. Keep on having fun.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #8
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    Yes, LG, the 600-yd square looks deceptive early in the morning when the shadow casts off it. The misses aren't visible if they go to the right around the berm corner, or into the brush 30 yards in front of the target, or over the berm into the target pit hollow behind. But if I have no spotter, and I miss in the right area, the distance allows time to follow through on the shot and still get to the spotting scope to see the bullet impact. On the 500 yard, I'd need the reflexes of a cat to do that.

    One of the really satisfactory things that are occurring after all this time is that I have reasonable expectation of actually hitting these targets the first shot. All that note taking seems to have paid off. Shooting these rifles makes one the methodical rifleman that all the instructors wanted us to be, because of the time and effort needed to load the cartridges. With smokeless, it was always just as easy to lob a few down there to get a sight setting, but with black powder, I have to do the record keeping to keep from wasting those cartridges I've sweated over.

    If you come up here regularly, you might check out the blackpowder cartridge shoot the Bakersfield Muzzle Loaders have at Kelso Valley once a month. The targets go from 350 out to 670 yards, and can be quite challenging at times. Even humiliating.

    I don't have an "alloy" as in lead-to-tin. I mix whatever alloy I have to a BHN of 8-10. Softer gives flyers around a core group (although it's great for grease groove boolits) and harder (the same mixture water-quenched) is a disaster. It's one area where having a lead hardness tester really helps. When I get things squared away better, I'll dip into my hoard of lead/tin solder and make up some standard mixtures and see if they improve things. I use the PJ Creedmoor for my grease groove loads too; there's certainly nothing better that I've found.

    Don,

    I do the crimp so the boolit doesn't fall out of the shell, or out of the patch as it stays in the shell. I've tried using unsized shells and thumb seating but haven't seen any advantage. But now that things are working, I'll revisit all the old processes. I also have a 505-gr Hoch mould and a RRR mould that at present is set at 520 gr and they are still being run through the process. The Brooks boolit was just the first to break the ice, I hope. I'll go on with the NAPA oil mix, just using more of it to get the goo out of the barrel. I had to special order it through NAPA because this State is Concerned about it for some reason. so it won't go to waste.

    No problem with having fun. The cleaning is work, but the results are a blast!

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Are you annealing the case mouths? What brass are you using?
    Settle down to a known alloy. The target will tell you. I have had very good and consistent results with 30:1 alloy from Rotometals. I use DGL lube also.
    Long drive for me-I'm in Palmdale near hwy 14 and PMD Plvd. on the west side.
    I shoot at Desert Marksman in Acton. It's 15 minutes from my house.
    LG
    Hav'n you along-Is like lose'n 2 good men

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Size the cases, but don't crimp them, what usually happens with a crimp is the back half of the patch gets cut on the case mouth when the bullet bumps up. I have a Lyman 45-70 size die that sizes the cases down just right to be a good fit with bullets patched to just under 450 diameter.
    If the bullets fall out of the paper, then you need to get them wrapped a touch tighter.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    I mix the Napa oil 7 water to 1 oil.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  12. #12
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    This target was shot with Starline cases, I've also used Winchester cases. The Starlines were just annealed, and the next batch of ammo is in freshly annealed Winchester cases. I full length size them and made a M die insert that slides into the case and just bells the mouth slightly. I have a Lyman neck size die but it doesn't size the case down enough to hold the boolits. The Lyman taper crimp just barely sizes enough; about 1/3 of the boolits are still loose in the shell.

    I'm trying thicker paper, but so far at 300 yards, the thin stuff has a slight edge, even though the boolit is an easy fit in the rifling, and a loose fit in the shells. When I push the round into the chamber, it slides in easily and I feel a sort of "click" as it seats home. The thicker paper seats with a harder push fit at the beginning but sometimes I need the seating lever after a few rounds have been fired.

    Right now, I'm trying to see if I can manage with a consistent hardness. If the products of later casting sessions don't work, I'll go to consistent alloy.

    We have people that come from Visalia sometimes, but it is a long drive. It's 50 miles from my house.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    RT to RC and back is 190 miles for me.
    LG
    Hav'n you along-Is like lose'n 2 good men

  14. #14
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    They aren't all like this, but misses at 600 yards off the bench are getting uncommon. Nice, overcast day, mostly windless but what breeze there was came from 12:30.

    The first one is the same load as the first post, in W-W brass, with the Hoch 500-gr boolit, patched with K&E graph paper, about 0.0015".
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ID:	121530 The diagram is 10-3/4" vertical x 15" horizontal, for five shots.

    The next one had the Steve Brooks 550-gr over the same load in the same brass, with 0.0015" erasable bond paper; five shots.

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    This one is 5-3/4" vertical by 14" horizontal. Any time I'm under two MOA for verticals, I'm doing as good as my groups with grease groove/blow tubing.

    Still having to clean with 4 wet patches and two drys. If I skimped on the cleaning a little, the core group would be there with a wide one or two. Anything more than the lightest gray color on the last wet patch starts to raise the odds of an "out." But, even with the groups with wide ones, all of them were on target with nothing in the dirt, so I'm happy, happy, happy.
    Last edited by Bent Ramrod; 04-13-2018 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Replaced missing photo.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Glorious weather today; little or no wind. Decided to neglect some necessary tasks around the house and go to the range for important experiments with the Sharps. First target is the Control load of the first posting, 600 yards:

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    I'll risk shocking my legion of fans by saying that I think I lost control on the fourth shot. The other four are in a 5 inch group. The vertical for all five is 9 inches.

    Second was the boolit from the Red River Rick adjustable mould. Adjusted to the same length as the Brooks 550 gr, it weights 525 gr, with its hollow base. Wrapped with 0.002" paper, it was necessary to seat the cartridge with my Buffalo Arms cartridge lever:

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    This group ran 12-1/2" for vertical, a little worse than I can get with grease groove boolits, but not seriously beyond experimental error. The paper shreds were bigger with the thicker paper, and the shreddies were farther from the bench than those of the thinner papers. Maybe the patch is taking longer to come off with the thicker paper; probably not a good thing. Kenny Wasserberger, who used to post here, said thick paper wasn't as accurate as thin; that the best way to make up windage was with larger diameter boolits and thin paper. I think Dan Theodore was of the same opinion. I'm kind of stuck with what diameters the moulds I have produce, so was kind of chary about wrapping them so they slid easily down the bore just to be able to use thin paper, but see below:

    Finally, the RRR boolit with 0.0015" graph paper. The cartridge went into the chamber with no noticeable resistance at all. I would have thought, with both this boolit and the Brooks one above, that the windage was a little excessive. Both patched boolits push through the barrel with little resistance.

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    This was 5-1/2" vertical by 5-1/4" horizontal. I don't think I've done this well with grease groove boolits at 500 yards. I used the same sight setting for the thin paper Brooks and RRR moulds. The extra 25 gr of lead in the Brooks boolit definitely makes a difference in elevation, if the paper thickness is similar. I can't say there is any serious accuracy difference between the boolits; you pays your money and you sets your sights. Should have set the windage to zero, but every time I've done that in the past, it shot to the left. Here I started 1/4 turn right and it stayed to the right.

    I used a nylon brush on the end of the cleaning rod as Don recommended and got the cleaning down to three wet patches and one dry. Still too slow for competition, but getting there. Looks like thin paper is the way to go. I'll load up a bunch more with this loading and try to figure out how to get five shots with a lick and a promise, cleaning-wise, without accuracy going entirely to pot. Hopefully I have some leeway here now .

    I called MVA about ordering another set of scope blocks for this rifle, but haven't gotten past their answering machine yet.
    Last edited by Bent Ramrod; 01-10-2019 at 12:13 PM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    Looks like your last load was the best for this lot of powder.
    LG
    Hav'n you along-Is like lose'n 2 good men

  17. #17
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    That's looking really good.

    I also think thin paper is best. It's surprising how well a slightly undersized bullet can shoot. Recently I've been fireforming some brass for my new .45-90 using a .444" 500gr Creedmoor nosed bullet with 8 lb Seth Cole paper. Their diameter is about 0.001" less than a snug fit, and they shoot surprisingly well. In the end I'll be going to a .445" bullet with the same paper though, as I think that some resistance upon chambering is best.

    Up until last year I used cotton patches. Last summer I bought 5000 Arsenal patches and have gone through most of them. I think they are the bees knees for greasers, but am not yet sold on them for PP bullets as I seem to get a cleaner bore with fewer patches using cotton. Kenny once posted that you can't get the bore too clean or too dry. I don't have the experience that he does, but my results from the last few years tend to agree.

    Chris.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    There will likely be little accuracy difference between the thicker and the thinner paper, but what does happen with the 9 lb bullet and a larger diameter bullet is the occasional unexplained flier, usually low.
    Go to a flannel patch and the bore will clean up quicker.
    Also I'm curious as to your statement about not having enough time to wipe 3 and 1? Many shooters wipe that many and more in the bptr matches, you have 25 minutes to fire 4 sighters and 10 for score in midrange, and 35 minutes for unlimited sighters and 10 for score in long range. You don't have time to doddle, but you do have time to do an adequate job of wiping if your equipment is layed out properly before the relay begins.
    Gong matches are another matter, and finding a load that will shoot dirty for those is the best route to take. Plus you don't have the smokeless shooters whining at you about being sure to pick up your patches...
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I've so far only gone to Gong and a few Silhouette shoots. My name seems to get called every 15 seconds in the former (especially at the Quigley; like you said, Pyrodex and smokeless shooters make those relays go fast) and I haven't got a comfortable routine down in the latter yet, even with a blow tube. I haven't tried patching while prone with the rifle on cross sticks, although I've seen people do it very methodically and unhurriedly. For me, it goes slow enough off the bench and sandbags right now. Guess I just need to practice doing it. I have some flannel around here, and will try it next time.

    Rick's mould casts about 0.441" and Brooks' does 0.440". The Hoch 505 gr I have casts about 0.444" and is definitely a tighter fit even with thin paper. Haven't got that one dialed in yet.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    You'll probably be able to make big improvements in your wiping speed with just a little practice. Just look at what you are doing and see where you can make speed ups. For me the biggest thing was patches sticking together. You can separate them ahead of time or use something like the patch popper. The one advantage of the Arsenal patches is that they seem to be less likely to stick together than cotton, which is why I like them for wiping with greasers in silhouette.

    Also, don't try spearing the patch on the jag if you use one. Just lay the patch against the chamber end and push it in with the rod. I find that works best prone. Steve Rhoades makes some nice wiping rods and delrin jags that are quite handy too.

    Chris.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check