Why Smokeless?

[texassako]

I say they can shoot whatever they want with their guns if it keeps the replica production flowing. The first loads to go through my Pedersoli Sharps were BP, and I realized real quick that I needed work on using the set trigger. There is something to be said for being able to just sit down at the bench with big box of reduced recoil smokeless reloads and working on trigger technique without worrying about anything else. Now I am back to BP and trying to keep a promise about shooting a deer with it this year.

[oldred]

It's best to keep posts about smokeless loads out of a black powder forum to keep the senseless from hurting someone else on the firing line.Keith

Or just the opposite might be true, discussing safe loads and real reasons for (or not) using smokeless might keep someone from making a mistake! What might be safe in a modern 45/70 Sharps for instance might not be in an original or in a trapdoor original or reproduction but believe it or not some people simply don't know. Then of course there are (too many!) people who will shrug off warnings and do what they are determined to do in spite of what they read but there's no helping these people. In any case NOT discussing a subject is not going to prevent anyone from making a mistake. It may be a BP cartridge forum but occasional discussion of alternative propellants in these old cartridges should not be frowned upon as long as they are respectful and presented in the right context, however someone coming here and belittling or scoffing at people for using BP would be totally out of line!

[ColColt]

For those that mention that they use vinegar in their cleaning solution . . . just remember that vinegar will remove blueing. Probably not an issue diluted but not diluted, it will make quick work out of removing blueing.

It's not straight Vinegar. It's "Windex as I mentioned with vinegar in it. I got that tip from Mike Venturino who knows more about this sport and the rifles than most of us will ever know.

Duplex loads? Not going to happen around here. BP doesn't need a boost as it's an explosive all to it's own. Just my opinion but to me that's one of the most dangerous practices you could do.

[MT Chambers]

2 words: cleanup

[ColColt]

I see not difference in cleanup. Two wet patches through the bore with hot soapy water, Windex, Hoppe's Black Powder Solvent or whatever your favoritie brew is followed by three dry patches and you're done with the bore. A little of your favorite brew on a Q-tip to clean the breech area and around the chamber mouth, dry and then run a patch with oil through the bore and a bit on the breech block, trigger area and that's it. I do no more or less with a modern rifle except use Butch's Bore shine or Hoppe's instead of Windex or some other powder solvent and oil the bore and bolt, inside the rails, etc. No difference.

[oldred]

Duplex is something I have dabbled with but only with BP, duplex smokeless loads are something way over my head that I would be afraid to try. Just recently, based solely on what I have read here, I decided to try a smokeless/BP 45/90 duplex load and while I would not attempt to give anyone advice one way or the other I personally was very impressed with the results. 7 grains of H4198 under 70 grains of FFG Goex and fouling was almost non-existent. Clean up was no different at all for either the rifle or the cases with the exception of a lot less residue in the cases but shot to shot was like night and day! From what I read here and a couple of other places it seems this is not an uncommon practice and has been done since the introduction of smokeless, but it was probably a much different smokeless than what we shoot today. The only rifle I have fired these rounds in was proof tested to Ruger no.1 pressures so I felt it was safe enough however I really can't see any signs of increased pressures although logically it would seem that some increase should be expected. YMMV

[Lead pot]

A problem that can happen using smokeless in these large volume cases is getting a detonation instead of a progressive burn using light loads that a lot of shooters like to use to reduce recoil. when you use a light powder load of the wrong smokeless that fills the case less then 1/2 full the primer can ignite all of the powder and you will get a detonation like using black powder and this will raise a pressure spike that will do a lot of damage.

It is a common practice for the schuetzen shooters to raise their muzzle for their special low powder loads to settle the powder in the base of the case. This increases the accuracy and also helps prevent a detonation of the whole charge.
Using these large capacity cases meant for black powder in black powder rifles it is best to use black powder. It cleans just as easy and the accuracy is just as good or better then using smokeless.

[Lumpy grits]

Bet we who shoot the real BP have far less problems find'n powder than the smokeless group doez--
LG

[MT Chambers]

It may be slightly off topic but I have no reservations of using a duplex load of 10% 4759 and 90% real black powder. I've done it so many times that it's gotta be safe! Advantages are: Much cleaner bore and chamber, rifle does not need cleaning or blowtubing to chamber subsequent rounds, you can shoot all day without cleaning. Disadvantages are: May not be legal in some competitions, and because it burns more powder in the barrel, increased velocity and RECOIL........Lyman has no problem recommending duplex loads, in their loading tables. On the other hand I would not ever try all smokeless duplex loads, mixing new and untried powders may not end happily.

[oldred]

A problem that can happen using smokeless in these large volume cases is getting a detonation instead of a progressive burn using light loads that a lot of shooters like to use to reduce recoil. when you use a light powder load of the wrong smokeless that fills the case less then 1/2 full the primer can ignite all of the powder and you will get a detonation like using black powder and this will raise a pressure spike that will do a lot of damage.

It is a common practice for the schuetzen shooters to raise their muzzle for their special low powder loads to settle the powder in the base of the case. This increases the accuracy and also helps prevent a detonation of the whole charge.
Using these large capacity cases meant for black powder in black powder rifles it is best to use black powder. It cleans just as easy and the accuracy is just as good or better then using smokeless.

Just as with any common loading practice it just means selecting the right components and following good procedure, the large case/small charge scenario is just as easily done when reducing the charge for a lighter load even in smokeless rounds. I think probably one of the most well know situations where this has occurred, at least it was the first I had heard of it, is using light Bullseye charges in 357 magnum cases. Maybe with the right powders a lot of empty space is safe or maybe not but either way I personally choose to avoid doing that and it's not at all hard to do with the 45/90 case, I suppose a 45/110, 45/120 or any of the huge 50 cases would be much more difficult to do this with.

In any event cleaning is as most have been saying just as easy or in some ways even easier but let's face it the fact is obviously it's much more critical for both rifles and cases. There is no urgency for cleaning rifles with smokeless and cases are sometimes hardly cleaned at all with smokeless but the point is this isn't, or at least should not be, a game changer either way. IMO anyone who doesn't bother to clean their firearms with either propellent is just looking for problems! Still bore fouling between shots, blowtubes, cases care at the range and in the field and even the smell are enough to cause some folks to look for other ways to enjoy the sport while to some of us it is not only no problem at all but actually just part of the sport that would be missed. BP is dirty and there's no denying that and no point in trying to sugar coat it, either a person enjoys BP and ALL that goes with it or they just want to shoot their rifles and don't want to have to deal with what they consider more trouble than it's worth. Some folks just want to go to the range or on a hunting trip and not have to be concerned with bore fouling, etc and they just want to shoot their guns so what's wrong with that?

[Lumpy grits]

It may be slightly off topic but I have no reservations of using a duplex load of 10% 4759 and 90% real black powder. I've done it so many times that it's gotta be safe! Advantages are: Much cleaner bore and chamber, rifle does not need cleaning or blowtubing to chamber subsequent rounds, you can shoot all day without cleaning. Disadvantages are: May not be legal in some competitions, and because it burns more powder in the barrel, increased velocity and RECOIL........Lyman has no problem recommending duplex loads, in their loading tables. On the other hand I would not ever try all smokeless duplex loads, mixing new and untried powders may not end happily.

How much re-sizing does the base of the case need.
I have seen many a chamber 'ringed' from duplex.
Never saw the need of duplex. If you want some speed-switch to 3F--
LG

[ColColt]

I suppose in some ways it really boils down to what you consider a hassle. I don't mind cleaning the black powder rifle and find it no more a chore than had I had my 7x57 out to the range. They both would get the same attention and their cases would get the same cleaning. Smell? BP don't bother me. In fact, it sort of turns me on!

[MT Chambers]

How much re-sizing does the base of the case need.
I have seen many a chamber 'ringed' from duplex.
Never saw the need of duplex. If you want some speed-switch to 3F--
LG

I don't size those cases at all, bullet just sits on the compressed powder charge, for me it is important to be out hunting all day and I don't need to take barrel cleaning equip. with me. I use this process for both the 45/70 and the 50/90 Sharps.

[Lead Fred]

Smokeless dont leave a big poof of smoke for anyone to see

[Gunlaker]

I think in some instances duplex could be a good thing. It's allowed in schuetzen matches and some of those matches require a lot of shooting. If you use the time you spend cleaning the bore for another purpose like waiting on conditions it could be an advantage. I've played a tiny bit with duplex, but will not dig into it until I think I've wrung the most accuracy I can out of straight black powder.

Chris.

[Lumpy grits]

I don't size those cases at all, bullet just sits on the compressed powder charge, for me it is important to be out hunting all day and I don't need to take barrel cleaning equip. with me. I use this process for both the 45/70 and the 50/90 Sharps.

I don't take any clean'n stuff with me either.
When back home-2-3 patches of Windex w/vinegar and I'm done with the bore.
I only blow tube between shots also--
LG

[ColColt]

I take all manner of goodies to the range with me. Cotton patches, rod and jag, bottle of Windex w/vinegar, blow tube, hand deprimer, jug of soapy water for tossing the cases into till I get home,note pad, slip on Limbsaver or Magnum Pad for the shoulder, spotting scope. push pins in case I forgot my stapler, cartridge seater from Arizona Sharpshooters in case I have a problem case not wanting to chamber, and if I've forgotten anything I bring that too. Hot damn what fun!

[GhostHawk]

In my day I've shot some holy black. CVA .45 kentucky rifle, couple of cheaper .36 caliber 6 shooters.

Black powder can be a lot of fun. But all you really need to do to seriously screw up a gun is to forget it for a day or 2 after shooting.

If I ever found the perfect Rolling Block that I couldn't live without I would I admit be torn.

The romance, the allure of the real Holy Black with all the cleaning and mess that comes with it?
Or light smokeless loads that would bruise my shoulder less, and still let me do what I wanted to do.
And no sweat after I get home from the range. Sometime the following week I can run a few patch's down the bore, give a light wipe of oil to the outside, no fuss no bother, no worry's.

Life happens, and if it happens to you when you have a dirty Holy Black gun your going to be sorry afterwords.

While the Romantic in me loves the idea, the realist says "no, we've been down that road, keep it simple"

Perhaps, if you were totally organized and do your cleaning at the range.
But I've never been that organized.

[John Allen]

I only shoot cast and blackpowder in my sharps, rollers and trapdoors. Smokeless powder is a passing Fad.

Holy Black all the way.

[ColColt]

Smokeless powder is a passing Fad.

Now, where have I seen that before?