Why Smokeless?

[ColColt]

Maybe I'm behind the times but I don't follow those that buy a Sharp's or Pedersoli Rolling Block of a given caliber to fire smokeless powder in it. Why? these rifles and most calibers were originally meant for black powder. I have a 45-70, had a 40-70SS and a 38-55. They never saw the first dose of 4759, Trail Boss, 2400 or any other smokeless powder. To me that just takes away the fun of it all. You may as well just buy a 30-06 and load it with H4895.

For sure none ever had a J-bullet through them and never will.

[country gent]

I was recently chatting between relays at a BPCR match with a friend who ask why I still shot black powder in my rifles. He told how much easier it was to clean smokeless and less corrosion issues He gave the whole "speal". He then after next relay called me over He brushed and patched with solvent then brushed again and 3 more patches extolling the last patch cleaned as much easier than black. My 40- 65 I brush 4-5 strokes with Windex or ballistol and water and patch with 2-3 patches, last patch is just a very light grey streaks. Most think black powder is a issue to clean and work with.

[ColColt]

When I go to the range I take a bottle of Windex with Vinegar, patches, decapper and a jug of warm soapy water for dropping the cases in for later tumbling. It's all part of it and I'd rather clean a BP rifle than my 270 Winchester...less time and trouble.

When I use to shoot BP pistols I made the mistake early on of cleaning it in the kitchen sink with hot soapy water. I was immediately run out of the house. The smell permeated the entire house.

[country gent]

I got caught cleaning a pair of stainless ruger old armies in the dishwasher. Once was enough for that

[ColColt]

Yep, we've all spent a little time in the dog house. I found Windex with Vinegar outside is much more preferable.

[NoAngel]

I for sure wouldn't run a jacketed bullet just because they offer nothing for performance in these types of cartridges. As far as smokeless powder, I gotta disagree. Some folks don't want the hassle involved in using Black. It's the whole reason I don't shoot corrosive surplus or own a muzzle loader.....and I have really wanted a muzzle loader for years.
I understand many of you do not consider it a hassle, but many people do. Different strokes for different folks.
I have to believe if you could travel back in time and ask a man from days of yore, they would opt for smokeless based on the fact that it's cleaner, easier to clean up after and fouling isn't a real problem with extended shooting sessions.
That steps on some toes amongst the purists but practicality and being an enthusiast have no relation. Many of you still believe the Garand to be a glorious weapon of battle but if you were able to offer WWII soldiers a selective fire SCAR17 in .308 they woulda jumped on it.

[oldred]

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, not very long ago at all I said I would never shoot BP in my cartridge rifles but I did shoot the real thing in my muzzle loader. Curiosity got the best of me and I tried BP (real BP) in my 45-90 to see what the fuss was all about and I was instantly hooked! I have even started shooting BP in my 45/70 Marlin and I will agree that cleaning is rather poor excuse if that's the only reason, some folks however don't bother cleaning smokeless after every shooting session so maybe it might be an excuse for them but whatever the reason it's really none of my business. I still shoot smokeless sometimes, depends on the situation, so I can see it from both points of view but in any case what someone wants to shoot in their own rifle is up to them. One thing I really don't understand is why someone would shoot any of the subs, the subs are not BP and they look, smell, load and shoot different than real BP and are even more corrosive and clean critical so what's the point in using them? If BP is not the choice why bother with a sub and why not just shoot an appropriate smokeless because neither is like shooting real BP. However, again it's nothing to me so if that's what they want to do it's their rifle and they are paying for the powder so whatever floats their boat I suppose.

The bottom line is this is supposed to be a fun sport and whatever is the most enjoyment, as long as it's safe, is fine by me. I like to encourage folks to try BP but encouragement and explaining about why I found it to be so much fun is as far as I would go. I would never try to coerce anyone to switch from what they want to use, be it smokeless, real BP or one of the subs, because for whatever their reasons it's what THEY want for THEIR rifle and if they are missing out on the real fun that's their loss not mine.

[EDG]

In my case I have zero interest in BP. My interest is in the rifles and the sights. The powder is nothing but the chemistry that provides the propellant. Your loads take 70 grains to deliver the same velocity my loads give with 24 grains.
I shoot BP velocities just like everyone else. To me these rifles are like shooting a large heavy .22LR.

There are a variety of arguments for BP that get used

1. Smokeless is usually associated with jacketed bullets. I shoot smokeless with cast bullets only. So the jacketed bullet fouling and cleaning argument means nothing.
Easier cleaning with BP means nothing if compared to cast bullets with smokeless. ALOX used in smokeless cast bullet lubes is a rust preventative. I usually run a patch wet with Hoppe's through then a dry patch and another wet patch. That is it.

2. Where cleaning is really an issue - some rifles are difficult to strip down and reassemble. Smokeless has a definite advantage with some of these.

Yes I have considered BP and will probably do it some day out of curiosity. I am not a competitor though so nothing compels me to use BP.
I have plenty of other projects ahead of BP on my list.

[ColColt]

Folks can do as they will. It's their money and their rifles. I shoot smokeless in my .222, 270's, 7x57, 243 and 22-250. I wouldn't consider BP in them as they weren't designed as such and would not be near as efficient. I've gotten .250" groups with the .222 and 3/4" groups with the 270 and 7x57. However, I've also gotten 1" groups with my Browning 45-70 with 64 gr of Swiss 1.5 and that's not with a Leupold or Zeiss 6.5-20x scope. That's with iron sights. So, for me, I'm a happy camper using the powders the rifles and style were made for. I likr the difference in recoil and the noise BP produces over the sharp crack from the 270...BP smells pretty good as well and I like the ten second lag after the smoke clears before I can see my target.

[pworley1]

The use of smokeless powder is just an option. Some of us like to use all our options.

[ColColt]

Nothing wrong with that at all. The one good thing about smokeless is you don't have to fill the case like you do with BP. As little as 3-4 gr of some powder can propel a 158 gr lead bullet and have an inch of space or more between the powder and the base of the bullet. Don't try that with black powder. There's not a nickel's worth of difference in clean up I've found. You don't have to disassemble a black powder rifle to clean it appropriately.

I just never liked the idea of smokeless in a large BP case and having to fill it up with grits or Dacron.

[oldred]

You don't have to disassemble a black powder rifle to clean it appropriately.

I just never liked the idea of smokeless in a large BP case and having to fill it up with grits or Dacron.

I agree that disassembly of the rifle is not required, however cleaning of both the rifle and the cases is more urgent although that too is a non-issue as long as it is done in a timely manner.


Filling large cases with inert fillers is not necessary in most calibers, I shoot both 45/70 and 45/90 without fillers. Even the 45/90 when used with the right smokeless powder is a nearly full case, no room for filler with either 400 or 500 gr bullets, and this can be at or only slightly above BP pressures so that doesn't have to be an issue either. We often hear that the reason these calibers should be loaded only with BP is they were "designed" only for BP, actually they were simply designed back when BP was all that was available so that doesn't necessarily mean something else could not be substituted. What I have found is that the argument that BP is the best for accuracy in these rounds is in fact just that a FACT! At least it has been for me but fellows let's face it some folks simply don't want the fuss of shooting BP and while it doesn't bother some of us others may find it more trouble than it's worth. Just because a person does not want to have to deal with fouling issues, extra corrosion details for both the rifle and the cases and the general dirty nature of BP does not mean they should not be able to enjoy shooting the old style rifles and cartridges. What is just part of the fun to some of us is not so much fun to others so I suppose that's why some folks had rather use smokeless.

[ColColt]

i dont find the cleanup any worse than with smokeless. After each shot I use the blow tube to soften the fouling...takes all of a few seconds. You're going to wait longer than that between shots with a FW rifle to cool it anyway. After each session and I'm ready to leave I take a 2-3" square patch, spray it with Windex with Vinegar, run it through the bore followed by another and then several dry patches. One last one with a bit of oil on it and that does it for the barrel. I swab out the chamber and breach block area, etc. That's no more than I'd do with smokeless.

When I get home the cases go into the Thumler's Tumbler for a few hours and the cases look as new. I do the same thing with smokeless cartridges. For me it's a labor of love and no more or less time spent. I understand others may not like using BP and I'm still trying to figure out why in light of the simplicity of using it. I spend more time preparing .222 cases and loads than I do for the 45-70. I already know what this rifle likes so I just neck size the cases, fill 'er up with the right amount of powder, insert wad, press bullet on top if slip fit or a light run through the size die to eliminate the flare and that's it.

It is nice to have a choice, however but for rifles such as the Browning I'd choose BP over smokeless and leave that to the Model 70's.

[Love Life]

I like using BP in my 45 Colt because it is easy to load and the cleaning is really a non issue. Case of powder, 454190, boom, grab the moose milk...

Plus, there is something about the actual "BOOM" of BP. I've yet to use it in rifles, but that day is coming. CajunShooter helped me get started. Speaking of him, has anybody heard from him lately?

[EDG]

Perhaps you have never used 5744 or SR4759.
Many of the people that preach against smokeless in a BPCR have a hang up with smokeless. They don't like the idea of smokeless and they have NEVER EVER TRIED IT WITH CAST BULLETS. So you get objections about using fillers like grits and dacron. I have been loading for the 45-70 since 1972 and I have never used a filler.
I have read a lot of information about loading the 45-70 with cast bullets and smokeless. There is little mystery since there are a good variety of of loads listed in old Handloader Magazines and in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
On the other hand BP shooters happily talk about using poly, felt, cork, vegetable and paper wads. Why are the wide variety of BP wads a good thing? Then there is the compression of the BP which seems to be common practice. Is that not objectionable?

I just never liked the idea of smokeless in a large BP case and having to fill it up with grits or Dacron.

[ColColt]

The variety of wad material is largely a matter of choice and what may work best in a given rifle. I'm partial to Walter's vegetable wads but others may use a host of other materials. I use what works in a given rifle. Experimentation is all part of the fun just like working up a load in either a 30-06 with no less than 15 different powders or with a 45-90 using Swiss or Goex or perhaps KIK. Less choices of powder in BPCR's because they all work.

Compression? Nope, don't use it. Swiss powder in this rifle doesn't like to be compressed so I don't do it. Goex does and IF I use that now and then it gets about.250" compression. Takes about ten seconds to determine how far down to screw the compression screw.

[oldred]

Another thing is that a lot of these old rounds were loaded with smokeless as factory loads just about as soon as that new fangled stuff came out so smokeless is not even non-traditional! The 45/90 is my favorite round and as I have mentioned several times before even that big case was factory loaded with smokeless starting in 1898! Just like the 45/70 was "designed" for BP and is a fantastic smokeless round far surpassing anything the designers ever dreamed of so can some of the others benefit as long as the firearm is up to the task. I do have concerns about shooting smokeless loads in 100+ year old rifles that may not have been designed with ultimate strength in the first place but good strong designs built from modern steels like Sharps, 1885s and some others are no worry at all. As has already been said smokeless is just another propellant and the choice of some folks for the same reasons it quickly replaced BP almost as soon as it became available. BP is fun and BP is different, some of us actually enjoy the characteristics of BP that others consider a nuisance, blow tubes, fouling and cleaning urgency may be part of the sport to some of us but to others they simply spoil the fun. I shot my big rifles using smokeless and enjoyed the heck out of it and still do sometimes but BP is just another angle and to me another sport in addition to normal smokeless shooting. I just like to see these big old time rounds in the old style rifles and what they can do and it matters not to me what people want to shoot in them!

[bedbugbilly]

I've shot BP for 50 + years so clean up doesn't bother me a bit - most of my experience has been in front stuffers, C & B pistols and full size 10 pounder artillery pieces. It's only the last couple of years that I got interested in cartridge guns and try BP cartridges just seemed natural. Different strokes for different folks though . . . .

For those that mention that they use vinegar in their cleaning solution . . . just remember that vinegar will remove blueing. Probably not an issue diluted but not diluted, it will make quick work out of removing blueing.

[25ring]

I like options,I've used straight black,duplexed black,smokeless,duplexed smokeless in my BPCR rifles and I have good accurate loads in all of these configurations. The most satisfying are the duplexed smokeless loads in that they are full case loads with BP velocities and pressures. Another benefit is the pulldown military powders that are or were relatively cheap [WC 867,WC 872]. FWIW--Mike.

[KHA]

In my case I have zero interest in BP. My interest is in the rifles and the sights. The powder is nothing but the chemistry that provides the propellant. Your loads take 70 grains to deliver the same velocity my loads give with 24 grains.
I shoot BP velocities just like everyone else. To me these rifles are like shooting a large heavy .22LR.

There are a variety of arguments for BP that get used

1. Smokeless is usually associated with jacketed bullets. I shoot smokeless with cast bullets only. So the jacketed bullet fouling and cleaning argument means nothing.
Easier cleaning with BP means nothing if compared to cast bullets with smokeless. ALOX used in smokeless cast bullet lubes is a rust preventative. I usually run a patch wet with Hoppe's through then a dry patch and another wet patch. That is it.

2. Where cleaning is really an issue - some rifles are difficult to strip down and reassemble. Smokeless has a definite advantage with some of these.

Yes I have considered BP and will probably do it some day out of curiosity. I am not a competitor though so nothing compels me to use BP.
I have plenty of other projects ahead of BP on my list.

If you have zero interest in using black powder why do you even post on this forum?
I don't post much but I do spend time reading on this forum and it is a black powder cartridge forum. ("BPCR,your place for combining the Holy Black and Brass.")
There is nothing wrong using smokeless powder in a safe manner but I read a lot of posts that makes my hair stand up from guys that make posts with load suggestions to get velocities up in pressure limits some of these old rifles or even the new reproduction rifles that cant take those king of pressure.
I have read and seen photo's on these forums of guys loading smokeless in these rifles that have destroyed fine old rifles and very bad personal injuries in the result of this.
Not every one has the commonsense to stay away from unsafe load practices just to get all the velocity out of a load they can.

It's best to keep posts about smokeless loads out of a black powder forum to keep the senseless from hurting someone else on the firing line.

Keith