8x57 Paper Patching Questions

[themetalguy852]

Ok guys, this is my first post so go easy on me

I'm a new reloader, bought a k98k German refurb about 2 months ago and decided this would be a good time to get into reloading because heck... $1+ a boolit is well.... rough. It's not very conducive to how much i want to shoot (not like my mosin, which i don't even think is worth reloading for unless i take it hunting.... which i can't in :takinWiz:NJ)

A little background first..... Being a new reloader, i thought i had everything i needed; die's, press, other various reloading components, casting stuffs, brass, primers, and lastly powder. And that's where my problem is, the powder. There were so many choices of powder and so much info on it that i mistakenly bought IMR 4064 thinking it was an "all around good powder for various loads". Which it is... with the exception of cast boolits. Womp. Bought 8 lb's of it because i wanted to get it as cheap as possible having to deal with an unavoidable $28.50 hazmat fee for shipping (got it for $203 shipped, still a good deal)

So i played around with various loads, casting in linotype so get as hard of lead as possible (around 21.7 BHN in my first batch of linotype) and ranging my powder from 26-37 grain (half gr increments) and using cotton balls as powder wads. All pretty much failures, i couldn't get anything better than 5" group at 50 (!!) yards with i think something like 31.5gr. Now another problem is i just bought another batch of "linotype" from the same dealer, but it's only 14.3 BHN! (linotype my...) And i also just inherited about 20 lbs of soft lead that was cast into .50 cal muzzleloader slugs. IMR 4064 just isn't going to do unless i want to try some hardcore trial and error, and probably use up all my powder in the process and lead up my bore like a ****.

So this is where paper patching comes in . I had seen it before, but didn't know exactly why it was done. Then while looking up ways to make my cast boolits fly faster and straighter, i came across PPing again. So i PPed a few of them and now i've got them loaded with the minimum load of 4064 for a similar gr jacketed boolit (i'm using the Lee .324-175 mold, throws them about 172gr)

So now i go to load one in my rifle. the boolit was first resized in a lee .323 sizer unlubed, then wrapped with PP approx 1/32" above the ogive, dried, and all i had to lube the PP that was some old, but still good, bow string wax(also inherited from my late grandfather of 13 years) then resized again in the lee .323 die. I used the lee flare die to flare the case mouth before seating and it looked awesome when all was said and done...

Then i went to load it in my rifle. It was tight to close the bolt and the paper was damaged. I thought that maybe i didn't have it seated far enough in but it looks like it's being ripped all the way back to the case mouth. Should i be sizing my boolits even smaller then applying the patch to bring it back up to .323? i don't really see the point as even with the paper it's going through the die and being sized to 323 anyway.

Another possible explanation is the paper i'm using. It's just regular lined notebook paper. I've read that onion skin paper is great, but will it really make a difference? I'm thinking in the end i'm going to have to get a lyman .321 sizer and size back up to .323 with the PP in the lee sizer.

But i know you guys are wayyyyyyyyy smarter on this than i am, so any advice is welcome and appreciated. like i said, I've only been reloading for about a month now, and i'm probably getting ahead of myself as far as these "advanced" techniques are concerned.

So...
1.) Does where the paper sits on the ogive or off the ogive really matter? some people i've read just wrap above the lube grooves...
2.) Is bowstring wax OK to use for patch lube? it's a bit hard, but doesn't seem to damage the paper any when applying it.
3.) Am i still screwed with the kind of powder I've chosen?
4.) Should i not be sizing the boolit again after PPing?
5.) Should be not be resizing the boolit to begin with?
6.)Should the patch and boolit be .001 or .002 larger than bore dia? or like the size of a jacketed round (.323)?

I could go on and on with questions, but if anyone could answer these and just give me a basic summary as to how i should really be going about this, that would be great.

Themetalguy \m/>.<\m/

[hardy]

Hi 852,did you read the stickies on the "Smokeless paper patch"forum,It,s all you need,especially pdawgs contribution......I,m a computer dinosaur so I can,t give you the link but good luck. Cheers Mike..

[Dan Cash]

Metalguy852, There is a lot of information of great value in the "stickey" section, however, there are many contradictory opinions and methods. Gear and Pdowgshooter gave me some very beneficial help though I don't use their paper, green bar printer paper. I will give you my advice, partly based upon their tutelage and my own experience. It is free so you may feel free to use it as such.

First, I found some paper that seemed like it met the requirement of tough and thin. It is the various tracing paper tablets that you can buy from WallMart or drug stores. Some brands are Art1st by Pacon Corp., Appelton, WI; Studio 71 Tracing Pad by Darice Co., Canada; Meade Academie Tracing Paper. All of these papers are .002 thick and fairly uniform over their surface and cost about $5.00 for 100 sheets.

Second, size your bullet to about .008-.009 under your desired final diameter. I want a .311-.312 patched bullet for my .30-40 Winchester or .30-30 so I size to .303-304 (result varies based upon the alloy), and put two wraps of .002 paper on the bullet. For your 8mm, if, for example, you need a .326 patched projectile, squeeze the core to .317.Don't run the bullet through the sizer after it is patched. Lead will be extruded into the seam where the patch ends meet and the bullet will be out of round. If the patched product is too large to chamber, squeeze the core to a smaller size.

Other stuff: LUBE with what is handy. I use some black powder bullet lube that I use for everything; lanolin, vasaline, Neats Foot Oil, lard (un salted), Crisco etc. Just wipe some on the patch prior to seating; keep it off the bullet base as you don't want to modify your propellant.
GAS CHECKS probably are not needed if your bullet is of a gas check design. For me, the verdict is still out but the checks seem un-needed when paper patching. I am pushing 215 grain .30 bullets to 2300fps without checks and getting 1.5 minute groups with aperture sights.

You have read about throat size in milsurp guns and that has much to do with your results. I have an 1895 Steyer with a beautiful bore but it is cavernous and I have not found a bullet that works - yet. The search is on. Good l;uck to you and I hope this helps. It won't hurt and you are free to do with my advice as you wish.
Dan

[zubrato]

Wow, I'm keeping this thread bookmarked for future reference, I'd love to see how this turned out. Was just thinking about doing this myself..

[UBER7MM]

I can tell you what doesn't work:
College ruled notebook paper
Common computer printer paper

I hope this helps,

[themetalguy852]

Thanks for the help guys, it's super appreciated! I read those "stickies" and it gave me a lot of good ideas. I'm finding, though, that there seems to be a few distinct groups (and sub-groups) here in the Smokeless PPing section (and i think being able to identify all these groups viewpoints could go to helping people like myself who are new to this)-- Those who size after they wrap; those who don't size after wrapping; those who say paper matters and those who say paper doesn't matter; those who lube and those who don't lube; those who size to bore and those who size to the throat of the chamber; those who do various combinations of said techniques, and finally those who seem to be getting BPowder and SPowder techniques confused and jumbled up, cause form what i can tell, the methodology is different for both in a few distinct ways.

But for me so far....

the first problem i'm running into, and i'm sure other people who are trying to patch for 8mm mauser will have also, is sizing down enough to size back up with paper. If i were to size my .323 (actually drops at like .325) down .008ish or so in order to wrap back up to size, i would need a .315 sizing die, and as far as i can tell, there aren't any that would work in my Lee single stage press. And i don't have enough experience lapping out, say, a .309 die to size to feel comfortable doing it (like i said i'm probably already biting off more than i can chew lol) So that option is out, i'm thinking

Another problem with this is i'm running into guys saying that you shouldn't patch up to size that you should size after wrapping. I can't really find any specifications on whether they mean you should size to Jacketed diameter or whether your PP bullet should be sized like a CB of about .001-.002" above or whether they mean the round should be sized to a specific diameter to the throat of the chamber. I'm going to guess they are referring to jacketed diameter just to keep things simple in these early stages of testing.

No one said anything bad about my powder choice so i'm going to guess that i'm OK in that department

PAPER! from what i can see, just from what rounds I've made so far, i think paper IS going to matter. Onion skin i think is going to be a good place to start as i want something that is thinner than the .002 lined paper i have to the moment. My hopes are that it will help fit in the throat better after chambering a round and help prevent ripping of the PP when closing the bolt which has been what's happening to me with a .323 sized .002" thickness paper lubed with bowstring wax then resized again boolit..... BTW for the sub-groups who says don't lube before final sizing, or don't size the boolit before wrapping.... i say to you... how??? every unlubed PP or initially unsized boolit that was then PPed (and various combos of such) i've tried has torn when trying to final size it :\

I'm not going to bother with gas checks for now, i don't think they are necessary, and i hate them... i'm finding that the GC are hard to seat and crimp on a .323 boolit, even using the lee crimp die with a custom lead filled/filed down brass case as a guide for the end of the boolit to do the crimping i could just be that much of a noob though... or the GC i got suck that bad.

So now i also was running into issues with seating depth in relation to where the paper patch sat on the boolit. I'm seeing guys who have their boolits seated so far out they look like they will just fall off when nudged. Does this have any advantage? from what i can tell some guys are doing this with already fired brass with no crimp and letting the rifle actually seat the boolit to final depth. How does that not destroy the paper when chambering the round if you have it wrapped up to the ogive???

Here are some pictures of my progress thus far. Firstly are the rounds i PPed and tried to chamber, which completely annihilated the paper and i think makes them useless. Secondly are the two boolites i managed to cook up that did chamber and didn't rip the paper, and finally is the one round that chambers, but the paper is slightly crinkled now so i don't know whether or not that is ok to shoot...

[Hardcast416taylor]

At the present time I am in conference with 2 mold makers on the feasability of making a paper patch mold for the 8mm (.323) Mauser. I have specified it be in the .318 - .319" body dia., a flat based design with small flat meplat nose and final wrapped weight using wheel weight alloy of 200 gr. I wish we lived somewhat closer so I could show you a lot of what is troubling you about this with hands on. I am sorta poor in written explanations on wrapping which is why I am not jumping in to offer advice. I can only advise to keep trying it, I made many a version of "The Mummy Bullet" when I first got into doing this. By practice you will find out what works and what is nonsense.Robert


I just got an E-Mail from Tom at Accurate Molds. He has added my mold of an 8mm Mauser PP 200 gr. mold to his catalog today. It is on page 2 of his on line catalog and is listed as #32-200P.Robert

[Old Coot]

Metalguy852: After looking at your photos I can see a couple of things that you might change: 1. Seat your bullets out further. The less a bullets has to jump to engage the rifling the better the accuracy. 2. Lose the paper and get some tracing paper or onion skin paper. Your paper is tearing during the resizing and it makes it hard to get a consistent projectile. 3. Don't resize your brass, just flare the case a little to keep the patch intact when seating the bullet, and patch to where the bullet is a firm press fit to the unsized case neck. This will give you a bullet that will fill the chamber throat automatically aligning the bullet with the bore and seating it to a length that will contact the rifling. 4. DO NOT CRIMP THE BULLET IN THE CASE. Crimping tends to pinch the patch to where it breaks the paper and who knows what happens then. Just take the flare off with either your seating die or sizing die with the decapping pin removed. Once you get some good shooting bullets you can work on ones that feed from the magazine. 5. Patch to just past the ogive of the bullet. If you need a sizing die (custom) you can get one from Bullshop or Jim Doughty on this forum. I have used Jim in the past and can personally vouch for his work and honesty. Brodie

[themetalguy852]

Robert- I've been looking for a custom boolit mold maker, thank you so much for telling me about those guys!! I should probably really slug out my bore but it makes me nervous. And i wish you were closer too, i feel like i really need the hands on experience of another right now, it seems like it shoul dbe so easy but it's not. I see people using regular boolit dies and molds and making this work, i don't see why i can't if i do slug out my bore, and say it's exactly .323, then the 3.19 mold should work? I'm still not sure exactly what the final size of the wrapped boolit should be in relation to my bore size. should it be over sized (like a traditional cast boolit) or sized to fit the bore?

Brodie- I just ordered my onion skin paper, should be in on monday. Also definitely going to look into those custom resizing dies. And are you saying that when i push the boolit into the chamber, it should be loose enough for the gun to move it around inside as needed? I feel like it's going to seat the bullet really far in and tear the paper. even when i was just loading regular cast boolits, i was noticing marks on the bootlits almost all the way down the length of the boolit to the case. And this was seated at the crimp grove, i think COL was less than 2.70" (which seemed really short to me because i see other guys seating it out to 2.86+") i'm guessing those marks were caused by the lands (or leade's?)

And thanks everyone for your advice, like i said i'm getting new paper in soon so i'm going to keep this thread up to date as soon as i have more information to post. Let's cross our fingers this won't take too long to figure out

Themetalguy \m/>.<\m/

[UBER7MM]

Brodie-....And are you saying that when i push the boolit into the chamber, it should be loose enough for the gun to move it around inside as needed? I feel like it's going to seat the bullet really far in and tear the paper. even when i was just loading regular cast boolits, i was noticing marks on the bootlits almost all the way down the length of the boolit to the case. And this was seated at the crimp grove, i think COL was less than 2.70" (which seemed really short to me because i see other guys seating it out to 2.86+") i'm guessing those marks were caused by the lands (or leade's?)...

Themetalguy \m/>.<\m/

852,

Never mind the crimping groove. You're in new territory. The best way I've found to get the boolit out to the lands of the rifling a chamber is to make a dummy cartridge:

1. Take pre-fired case and bell the rim of the mouth with that expander die so that the rim won't cut the paper patch.
2. Place a patch boolit in the mouth of the case. You may want to start it with your seating die a bit.
3. Gently, chamber the dummy round in your rifle. If you force it, you run the risk of the boolit being pushed into the empty case.
4. Eject the dummy round and keep it to set your seating die. This is especially useful if you have more than one projectile or rifle per seating die.

I hope this helps,

[303Guy]

I can tell you what doesn't work:
College ruled notebook paper
Common computer printer paper

I hope this helps,

There are rules and there are exceptions to those rule. I've had success with both college ruled notepad paper and common computer printer paper. What made the exception to the rule is the condition of the bores. Very worn and shallow rifling in the one and a very badly rusted bore in the other. The rusted bore literally had a layer of scale throughout the bore which I fire-lapped out, leaving a very oversize bore that looks like a dry riverbed. Both bores have very rounded rifling (not to mention pitting in the one), hence the exception to the rule. The riverbed bore would not shoot at all if it weren't for paper patching. It produces 2000 fps from its 14½ inch barrel! Paper patching rocks!

[edwin41]

hello,
my thinking would be that the 8mm mauser would be like my 6.5 mm mauser in many ways.
castings should be very soft in my opinion , mine are cast in pure lead , with a little tin added , hardness would be somewhat under 10 bhn.
sizing is not a problem , one can make his own sizerset easy ... take a look at the 6.5x55 mm thread and see how i solved this.
wrap twice in the chain bar printer paper , i start at the top of the first lubegroove , so i leave the nose bare.
before you wrap , make sure you have some disks out of an perforator , wet them and stick them to the bullet base, then wrap.
leave them to dry overnight , then i run them through my lyman lubesizer , lube is 50/50 beeswax - vaseline.
i only necksize , and i run a lyman "m"die through the necks after neck sizing.
the powder i use is AA 5477 [ called lovex d060 in europe ] , and 19.5 gr of this powder.
its a very accurate and low recoil load , hope this helps...

[UBER7MM]

There are rules and there are exceptions to those rule. I've had success with both college ruled notepad paper and common computer printer paper. What made the exception to the rule is the condition of the bores. Very worn and shallow rifling in the one and a very badly rusted bore in the other. The rusted bore literally had a layer of scale throughout the bore which I fire-lapped out, leaving a very oversize bore that looks like a dry riverbed. Both bores have very rounded rifling (not to mention pitting in the one), hence the exception to the rule. The riverbed bore would not shoot at all if it weren't for paper patching. It produces 2000 fps from its 14½ inch barrel! Paper patching rocks!

303Guy,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm glad to hear that here is hope for over sized, rusted out bores. I am also impressed with the velocity you're reporting. I should have prefaced my post with "IMHO...".

Regards,

[themetalguy852]

Edwin- Maybe that's on of my problems, i'm currently casting in the 14-15bhn range, and my first batch was around 21. I have soft lead from some old muzzleloader boolits that around about 9bhn, looks like i'm going to be doing some more casting this week. I'm kind of stuck with what powder i have at the moment until i use it up, the wife will kill me if i buy more powder because i got the wrong kind lol So i'm kind of "stuck" having to load up full loads of around 43 grains i'm thinking, maybe a little less, but from what i tried with anything less than 37 gr of the IMR 4064 with GC'ed boolits didn't work out so well.

My onion skin paper came in and i just patched 12 of them and they are drying, going to try a sizing them again after they dry and get lubed then i'll seat them and see what happens.

I will say this about onion skin paper. It's definitely thinner (at .001" instead of .002") but it's a pain to roll with, i think i started getting the hang of it but it curls like crazy when you moisten it, and seems to be a bit harder to roll on flat without any bumps. However it does seem to be really strong given it's thickness and none of it has torn or ripped during application so far, my printer which i used to print patch templates on doesn't like it though. I think i'm going to have to make an actual brass/aluminum template and start cutting them out with an exacto knife.

Its kind of funny that a lot of people are telling me to no size my brass, before i started this post i ended up resizing ALL of my brass so i don't have any fired cases lol Hopefully the lee flare die will be enough to seat them without tearing

Well see what happens when they dry i guess

-852

[Old Coot]

metalguy;
The biggest point for paper patching as I see it is to shoot a softer alloy that will expand better at or near jacketed speeds. Resized cases will F"possibly" squeeze down the bullet a little more when seated. Also, you want the bullet to fit the throat and using a fired case and a tight fitting patched bullet just makes that throat fit easier to accomplish, but you have to use what you have on hand. You might keep in mind for the future and skip resizing. I know I have to decap my 7.62x39 in a 300 winmag die and then reprime and bell the cases to load them with paper patched bullets.
Good luck and I think that you are on the right track. Remember: "It is not the destination, but the journey that is important." Sometimes it seems like we'll never get there. Brodie

[303Guy]

UBER7MM, I wish I could claim success with my good bore Brit.

metalguy, I would think your powder of choice would be just fine. My powder was H4350. I did find problems with powder peening of the boolit base (which was exposed). I tried a card wad and soft fillers. I then tried ball powders because of the 'softer' nature and also because I was given to believe the pressure curve was more favourable (gentler launch into the bore). I only tried one at a target and the results were interesting but inconclusive - I got severe vertical stringing, possibly due to bad bedding. The horizontal spread was what was interesting. Very little! Hopefully soon I will retest them with the bedding sorted. The powder in that test was W748.

What did seem to work was a denser than normal tuft of Dacron, not just to position the powder but to buffer the boolit base. I'm talking only a small volume of Dacron with a near full case of powder. Unfortunately my testing came to an abrupt end a while ago but now I'm getting back to it.

[UBER7MM]

UBER7MM, I wish I could claim success with my good bore Brit.

Yes, some rifles prefer a 'j' word diet.

Shame that,

[303Guy]

Yes, some rifles prefer a 'j' word diet.

But I already have a good j-word rifle! I need this one to shoot paper patched well. It did shoot j-words well. I could hit a beer can (empty) at 200m with it.

[Harter66]

Metal,
Buckshot makes nonstandard Lee style push through dies also.

Your core in the ideal ,should be .001-2 larger than the bore as opposed to groove dia.

303 points out the exception rule of exceptions. I had a rifle that I piled w for months sizing ,slick ,knurled, grooved,over the ogive,off the ogive,fast rifle/slow rifle powders, sized ,unsized ,lubed ,dry..... then in a fit I loaded some dry wrapped unsized (both core and paper) and ding that's what made a .316x.305 762x 39 shoot even with a neck,throat and lead that would chamber a boolit of 323 with a 318 nose. I sized the core .309 for the .305 bore.

At the other end there is a 308 that likes a wet wrap of 309 on a 301 core over the ogive and 03 that wants a dry patch about .1 out of the neck sized 309 on a 301 core then there a Savage 110 that likes a dry wrap over the ogive of .3015 core and a lubed patch but unsized.

It also may take some time to slick up the bore so the bore and paper will talk.

[UBER7MM]

But I already have a good j-word rifle! I need this one to shoot paper patched well. It did shoot j-words well. I could hit a beer can (empty) at 200m with it.

Therein lies the riddle wrapped in an enigma, which has turned into a saga of epic proportions, or an epic of saga proportions, or words to that effect. May I be so bold as to call it the "Ubersaga conundrum"? I can't quite get the term, "soap opera" in that sentence. But I digress.....

I don't think this helps,