Coated bullet for 7,5x55 and .30-06?

[jayjay1]

Hello everybody,
I´m an old reloader, younger caster for handgun bullets, but new to the world of rifle cast bullets (and boolits).

I have two old Boomslats, a Swiss Infanterie Gewehr 1911 in 7,5x55 (bullet dia. 7,62mm) and US Modell of 1917 in .30-06 Springfield (same diameter).

I want to begin making my own bullets for those beautiful old service rifles, but have no experience at all.

Want to shoot them at 100m (no other option around) and am now looking for "the" mold.
As both calibers are pretty similiar, I think one mold could fit both.

Thought about something in the 165gr. - area.
Any suggestions from you folks?

Begging for help.

[DanM]

The common Lee 30-155gr with normal lube groove or their TL30-160 tumble lube gas check spire point bullets work surprisingly well in most .308cal bores. I may have the model numbers wrong, but they are the somewhat pointy .30cal Lee molds. Available only in a 2cav mold from lee. There have been semi-custom versions made in 4cav blocks of better quality. The Lee molds are lighter made and pretty cheap, but can make good bullets. They shoot great in my K11. I think many or most of our members started their casting journey with a Lee mold. I still use some of mine....DanM

[williamwaco]

I have really good results with the Lee 170 gr. It is a clone of the very popular Lyman 311041.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/574...ProductFinding

[Ricochet]

The two Lee designs that DanM mentioned are of nominal .312" diameter, originally intended for the 7.62X39mm. I have the tumble lube CTL312-160-2R. I run mine through a .314" sizing die to seat the gas checks, and that just slightly sizes the tops of the micro-bands on the shank of the bullet. It's a little fat for some .30 caliber rifles. More important than the shank diameter is that most of the nose part of the bullet is .309" diameter, which can limit chambering unless the bullet is seated very deeply in the case. That will of course vary with the chambers of your rifles. It can't be practically chambered at all in my Swiss K-31 rifle, as the tight bore starts right at the mouth of the chamber. It won't accept most .30 caliber bullets without abnormally deep seating. My favorite cast bullet in both my Ruger M77 30-06 and in my 1911 Swiss rifles is the Lyman #311291 design, which was copied into a 6 cavity Lee mould in a group buy on this board several years ago. In the Lee moulds, I'd suggest considering their entire line of gas checked nominal .309" moulds, from the C309-113-F to the C309-200-R.
http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casti...-double-cavity

[Scharfschuetze]

As Ricochet alludes to above, many of the cast boolit designs that work well in US Military rifles are not good choices for the Swiss 7.5mm, at least in the K31 that I have experience with. The short lead in the Swiss chamber requires very deep seating of the boolit and the short neck of the Swiss round only exacerbates the situation and places the gas check and lubricating grooves very deep into the case. I'm adverse to that approach so I'm now thinking that it will take a purpose made design for the Swiss rifle. I don't know about the throat in your Infantrie Gewehr von 1911, but I assume it's similar to the K31's throat and thus will have the same issue.

I've had some success in my K31 using a plain base version of the Lyman 311041 boolit seated deep at about 1,300 fps, but to go beyond that velocity I'm afraid that I'm going to have to invest in NOE's mould designed specifically for the Swiss round. It has a smaller than normal bore riding section so that the projectile can be seated properly in the case and still chamber. Before I do that though, I'm going to try Lyman's tapered MXL 195 grain GC (#311679) design first as I have that mould in my collection already.

You may also find that your 1917 will require a slightly larger diameter sizing die than your Swiss rifle as many US 1917 Rifles seem to have slightly larger bores than the contemporary 1903 or M1 rifles.

I wish I would have bought one of those 1911 Swiss rifles when they were for sale at Sears & Roebuck for something like $25 back in the mid 60s. Alas my meager earnings at that time just wouldn't support more than my Lee Enfield SMLE (BSA 1916).

[StratsMan]

In addition to NOE, you can find molds designed for K-31's at Accurate Molds....

[madsenshooter]

1911's usually have a more generous throat than the K31, and the regular 30 caliber molds are useable in them and your 1917. I found one my K31 likes, won't be easy to find another as the maker has passed away and they often bring a premium. Here's how my K31 shoots @100yds with the Eagan MX3-30-AR @2000fps. Closest thing to it would be the RCBS 168gr bullet. It has less taper than the Eagan. It should be just what the OP needs for both his rifles.

Oops, sorry, I missed the fact that you were looking for a bullet to coat. I don't coat, know nothing about it.

[jayjay1]

Hey madsenshooter,
that´s a good looking bullet there!

@all:
Yes, I want to coat them, - and - I have no experience with gas checks.

So I was hoping, that I can do lower velocities, just for 100 meters, so that I must not adapt a gas check.
Must I?

I´m having a star sizer and don´t know if the GC will work with that.





My IG11 doesn´t have a short throat.
Most bullets can´t be seated out as much as I want, because they would come to far out of the case.
Either way it is a very good shooting rifle.

[Buckshot]

............jayjay1, there is a forum on the board having to do with coating cast lead, here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...d-Alternatives

You may want to check in with the guys there that are accomplished it the 'Ins & outs' of that. So far as shooting plain based slugs in the 30 cals, I've had good luck with the Lyman 311410. This is a 130gr RNPB which I believe was originally added as a design for the 30 M1 Carbine. I do have a Swiss K-31 but never tried that slug in it. All my use of it was in a Ruger BH revolver chambered to the 30 M1 cartridge and my M1903A1 Springfield 30-'06.

My copy of this 2C Lyman mould was purchased in the mid 80's and it drops it's slugs at right at .314". I lube-size at .314" then send them up through a .310" 'nose first' push through die. All I've ever used was 6-8 grs of Unique, or Red Dot powder. I worked this up for shooting ground squirrels around the place. We had horses and Mules so it's relative quietness was also a positive. On the Springfield I'd stand the ladder up and use the peep at the 500 yard setting. Set the ground squirrel on top of the front sight and that worked for the vermin at 50 yards.

I do not know what powders you have available to you, but generally most of the faster pistol or shotgun powders will work very well with plain based boolits, or even those up to around 160grs designed for GC's but used without them. You'll need to start at around 6 grs and then work up a grain at a time. You'll also need to be aware of the powder position in the case with such small charges as you start out or you may end up with a stuck slug you'll have to drive out I did that when using Bullseye powder in the 223 cartridge in my old Savage M112 with a 26" bbl. With 2.0grs of Bullseye, if after loading you'd elevate the muzzle the 55gr lead slug would depart at about 700 fps. If you did not, the slug would stop in the barrel and gas would slowly hiss out from around the case!

.............Buckshot

[jayjay1]

Hey Buckshot,
thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts in this stuff.

Btw., if I would shoot some small game over here, I would loose all my guns and end up in jail.
So the US are still more free than the EUdSSR.


Did some searching too, and found this article inhere:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Rifles-Article

"1. 125 grain plain based "small game/gallery" 900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

2. 150 grain plain based "100-yard target/small game", 1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

3. 170-180 grain gas checked "200 yard target", 1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grains of Hercules #2400 or equivalent.

4. 180-200 grain gas-checked "deer/600 yard target", 1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grains of RL-7 or equivalent."

Up to 1.400fps has been no problem in my pistol rounds with coated bullets.
Maybe it´s a different story with the rifle bullets for having more surface, but I will try to find this out.

Is anyone inhere using a star sizer with his rifle boolits and doing GC´s on it?

[jayjay1]

Gents, as a newbie to the rifle boolits I´m learning with every post from you and am very thankful for your support.

Beginning on the low cost side is a very good point, so I was looking around, which LEE molds are in store in Germany (the caster scene is very small over here).
I´ve found and ordered the LEE C309-180R (which was in stock) and ordered some gas checks too, because I´ve found out, that the star sizer will accept GC´s without any problem.

So that´s the way I want to go and will begin with the 30-06, which seems to be made easier for some reason (chamber throat etc.).

May I ask you some questions about this subject?

With the pistol boolits it is suggested to size them 1 or 2/1000" above the widest bore diameter (when slugged).
Is this the same with the rifles?

I´m having Vithavuori N350 on hands, which is a slow pistol powder.
Can I use this with this 30-06 - 180gr. - M17 cartridge?
(P.S.: I found suggested loads with Unique and 2400 in the Lyman CB Handbook, the burning rate of N350 is lying between those.)


Any suggestions are welcome!
Best regards,
Jay

[Scharfschuetze]

Jayjay,

I think that you are on the right track. Unique is very useful in the lighter cast boolit loads in the 30/06 and 2400 is one of the more popular cast boolit powder for it over here in the States. I have had good luck (depending on the rifle) with either .001 or .002 over groove diameter. Most posters here will recommend the larger of the two diameters and I think that is a good "rule of thumb" or a good idea. Some shooters will even use a larger diameter in order to better fill the throat of the barrel and then let the bore size the boolit down to its final diameter.

As you are in Germany, do know this shooting club outside of Böblingen (Südwestlich von Stuttgart)?

[jayjay1]

Hey Scharfschütze,
thanks for your response, good to hear that.

Well, of course I know Sindelfingen, but I don´t know this special club.

I´m shooting in Emmendingen, which is in the same state, but some miles away from there.

http://www.sgh-emmendingen.de/

On the picture from the IPSC Regionals, I´m the second from the right side, I´m training this team.
Shooting everything I can lay my hands on, think you can call me a gun nut.


My home club is Herbolzheim

http://www.schuetzenverein-herbolzheim.de/

which is almost as old, as the Sindelfingers.

[gwpercle]

My 1911 Schmidt-Ruben, Carbine ( "K11" ) 7.5 X 55 , 1903-A3 Springfield, 30-06 , and even my model 94 Winchester lever action 30-30 , all feed , fire and group well with the Lee C309-170-F boolit, cast of air cooled wheel-weights and sized .308 or .309 used with a gas check.

[Scharfschuetze]

Ha, ha! Yes, the shooing affliction is on both sides of the Atlantic. You are well positioned in Herbolzheim to compete in France and Switzerland. I have great memories of the area of Freiburg and Strassbourg, France in your vicinity. I once was also at the shooting club at Heidelburg, but I understand that the "Schützenverein" there is now closed.

I may be in the Stuttgart area sometime in 2015. I still have friends there from military duty and I always like visiting the area.

[jayjay1]

@Scharfschütze:
Thanks for you kind words.

I´m living close to France and Switzerland, correct.

Here we have a very warm area, around the river Rhine, where very good wine grows (Badischer Wein from the Kaiserstuhl).
The Black Forest is very close, I can see the rising hills, looking out of my window.
Definetely a nice place to live.

BTT.:
I slugged the 5-groove barrel of my M17, not knowing how to measure that!?

It came out with .309", which I normally would size to .310", but how about the 5-grooves, which means I have to add some dia!?
Should I go .311" or .312"?

Any tips in this?

[Scharfschuetze]

Jajay,

I think that either .311 or .312 would be the way to go. Do you have a Lyman M Die or RCBS expander die for cast boolits? Most reloading dies have an expander (.304 to .305) for jacketed .308 bullets, so the larger diameter and softer cast boolits can get squeezed down if seating them without expanding and belling the neck to .308-.309 or so.

I too have a couple of 1917 (Remington & Winchester) rifles. The Remington has the tighter bore and better bore. Both are good shooters and you just have to love the aperture sights on them.

[madsenshooter]

Your VV N350 is about the same burn rate as Alliant's Blue Dot, which I've got results with. It would also be close to a VV powder which is loaded in US 50BMG plastic training ammo, VV 10B101. There's a sticky with load data for 10B101 in the powder section. It's a rather large flake powder that doesn't meter well. Again, some good results using that. You'd be safe starting around 16gr and working up with your VV N350. Since your measurement may be off a little, I'd size .311. That will better fill the throat of your 06 and the throat will size the diameter of the bullet down any more that may be needed.

[Forgetful]

With the pistol boolits it is suggested to size them 1 or 2/1000" above the widest bore diameter (when slugged).
Is this the same with the rifles?

What I've been able to glean so far, is that pistol bullets are better off not sized, and rifle bullets should be sized to bore. Yes you can allow the bore to swage your round but apparently your accuracy will suffer. You want the rifles pressure to obturate the boolit to fill the bore; if it is already filling the bore before obturation, you should have a pressure spike.

[jayjay1]

Thank you Gentlemen, for sharing your experience with a newbie!

I love to learn from you and highly appreciate your support for saving me time and making mistakes.
What I recognized while slugging was, that the throat and the muzzle parts were tighter than the middle section of the barrel.

So I´ve slugged .309", will add 1/1000" for the tight fit and 1/1000" for having a 5-groove barrel, ending up with .311" would be good to go, yes?

@Scharfschütze:
My M17 is a Remington too.
I love this rifle for the trigger, the long sight distance, its accuracy and for the peep hole on the rear.

With my eyes getting older I prefer the "hole" sights.

Well, I´m having a Lyman .30 M - expander die, because I´ve used H&Ns CP (so called "HS") bullets in the past.
The die itself is only .3055", but will flare the case mouth, so that it should be good to go, right?

@madsenshooter:
Very good to hear that the N350 will work!
I´ve never heard about this VV powder 10B101!?

Haha, well, 50 BMGs are very rare here.
They are allowed (single shot), but there are very less ranges where you can shoot it, because of energy of this caliber (most rifle ranges are free for 7.000 Joule).
The rifles are very expensive too, so is the ammo.

@Forgetful:
So, if I understood you right, you say, that the bullets in the rifles should be smaller or equal to the bore diameter?
Hm, that´s new for me.

With having measured .309" in a 5-groove barrel, which dia for the bullet would you recommend?