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Thread: post 64 winchester any good

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I've had my grubby hands all over the innards of these rifles. You want the truth? Here it is:

    I have seen loose and tight pre 64s
    I have seen loose and tight post 64s
    They all were better average quality than Marlin, except for those few shining points in history where Marlin got it right (the early ones look like they were made in a back room with a bench grinder.)
    If you're talking about quality, Winchester stands out in my mind as being far more consistent over the last 100 years than any of the other American makers (till they folded that is).
    The changes made in the 60's were not bad, except for the fact that they had to learn to make firearms in a new way (which they pulled off with superb grace, if you compare to Remington's recent purchase of Marlin firearms and the subsequent learning curve we all paid for).
    The upshot of it is, that I would sooner own a Winchester than any other American firearm, no matter when it was made. I base this on a knowledge of their quality internally, and not where they cut cost on things like stocks and finish, and non essential flu flu BS that makes everybody week in the knees or sick to the stomach. I judge firearm quality by what's on the inside, and Winchester has impressed me so many times, I just know what to expect.

    The problem is, they were too practical with some of the changes that were made (the M70 extractor for instance was an absolute stroke of genius, but was so far away from what they had originally, no one appreciated it).
    The sintered metal recievers on the post64 94 levers was that way as well. I mean, from a practical/functional point of view, if you're going to cut cost on something, the place to do it is in the big part that just holds all the parts doing the work in alignment! They were years ahead of their time on that.
    Unfortunately, these changes did not sit well with the american people, and Winchester pretty much got dealt all the dirt that should have been passed to the new manufacturers, who offered cheap junk to the public at a reduced pricepoint, to the detriment of real quality. The American public wanted cheap guns and high quality, but proved that they were only willing to look at the surface appearance and function, giving no thought to the longevity of the firearms, nor the true craftsmanship that went into them. (I know this, because now I'm being asked to fix all these low quality firearms because "grandpa gave it to me and it's special!". Well, grandpa shouldn't have been taken in by the cheap junk sellers.)
    This spelled the doom for a company that only knew how to produce fine firearms the old way.
    Fortunately, many many people bought the new Winchesters, but soon found that even though they shot really really well, and functioned perfectly, Winchester did not put the emphasis on surface quality that the others did.
    The post 94 is a classic example. That sintered steel receiver, while very strong and perfectly reliable, would not keep the finish more than a few years before it started getting all spotty and rubbed off. So even though it works perfectly, in a short period of time, it looks like complete junk. This left a sour taste in the mouth of the American public, and they complained so much about the looks of the guns, that it soon became common knowledge that the post 64 94s were junky rifles which hurt their pricepoint dramatically (Americans are a very vein people, and appearances are everything, right after cost).

    Therefore, the post 64 Winchester 94s are not worth half what they should be. If you find one in absolutely immaculate condition, $350 is all you should pay for it, regardless of its history.
    Regardless of the quality of the guns or how they shoot, that's all they are worth for the reasons listed above. We can argue till the cows come home about right or wrong, but the reality is it's just not worth what a Marlin of the same vintage and condition is.
    The good news is it's a great way to get into an awesome shooter for low money, but if somebody's trying to sell you one for $500 "because I worked on it" or because "I know somebody who worked it over real good" it's time to walk away shaking your head.

    Just my opinion.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    I agree with just about everything you said. except Winchester had problems with the finish on their early gun too. the blue was flacking off the early 94's also. but back then people were just glad to get them and use them. now the market is flooded with guns and people are like ferrets. attracted to the shine.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master




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    I think that the low point for Winchester was the 1964 through 1967 period. I was just starting my shooting career at the time and several friends bought what they thought were top of the line rifles, but in a few short years I saw three broken firing pins in Model 94s and a broken extractor on a Model 70. I did not notice the aforementioned finish problems until a few years into the 70s, but it was most striking with many such rifles on the used gun racks. Those broken parts were probably not design failures, but probably stemmed from abysmally poor or unskilled labor and equally bad quality control.

    In 1968, as memory serves, Winchester saw the light and upped the quality level and it was reflected with a "G" prefix on the Model 70s and the return to a forged steel follower in the Model 94. In the 70s at some point, I think that machine cut checkering on the Model 70 replaced the God awful ugly stamped checkering that made its appearance in 1964.

    I recall gun writer Jack O'Connor's statements (Probably in either Outdoor Life or Field & Stream) where he lambasted the management at Winchester for the mess. No truer words were ever spoken.

    Like others in the thread, I think that the price for that Model 94 you are considering is a bit dear. Do make sure that it was made after 1967 if you decided to purchase it.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 10-19-2014 at 02:39 PM.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  4. #24
    Boolit Mold
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    Nice write up goodsteel. In 50 years of this debate that is one of the best explanations I have read. I heard a Winchester factory rep say something quite similar back in the 80's.

    Marlin had their turn with Sinterned <sp> metal. I remember some that had what looked like a parkerized finish that would wipe off if not treated well.

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I suppose another way to put it is: accross the board, over any firearm and any caliber/gauge, if I had my choice of best that any American gunmaker has produced, I would choose Winchester every time, and not think twice.
    But
    if I had my choice of the worst that any American gunmaker has produced........I would still choose Winchester.

    That at pretty much sums it up for me succinctly.

    That said, I have a few Marlins made at those shining moments in history that I mentioned, and I love them dearly. I take care to pick wisely, and all of them are superb quality.

    You know what the real kick is? Some of those janky rifles are the very best shooters that can be had, even though they look like a bunch of rabid beavers slapped them together to plug a rifle shaped hole in a dam.
    Ya just never know.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy

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    I've been privileged to play with a variety of Winchesters, and to my mind, Char-Gar hit the nail on it's head in post #10.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I am old enough to remember well the great cry of anguish that went up in 1964 when Winchester changed some manufacturing techniques to reduce the cost of making their firearms. The only comparable public outcry was when Coca-Cola removed the traditional Coke and replace it with the new Coke.

    The truth of the matter is the changes Winchester made never had any effect on the accuracy or utility of their firearms. They continued to do what Winchester firearms always did. It was just a clash of tradition vs. modern manufacturing. There really never way a question of accuracy, reliability or utility.

    I still like the old stuff, because I am old, but have enough reality in me to understand that it is just a preference and nothing of substance.

    Ditto.

    I was there.
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  8. #28
    Boolit Man
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    I have a 1967 '94 and a marlin 336 both in 30-30. The '94 has had a rough life between me and my brother. The '94 is very accurate with cast bullets, the Marlin after a ton of experimentation, is so-so. To me the only difference in pre and post '94s is the finish. Usually the finish on post models are not that good (it's more of a paint I think) and they are impossible to refinish. I have quite a few Marlins in different calibers and they are all very solid rifles. The Winchester is also a lot lighter than the 336.

    For hunting I'd take the Winchester any day. I agree that a nice W94 or Marlin 30-30 shouldn't set you back more than $350. However any other caliber can drive the prices up quite a bit.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    All good info, thanks. it is something i will keep in mind if i get to look at it.(wife has final say)

  10. #30
    In Remembrance
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    (wife has final say) I LOVE IT, you better get to sweet talking her. lol

    Remember this, it is always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. lol

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy Doc.Holliday's Avatar
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    + 1 goodsteel; I have Winchester 73's ; 86's, 92's and 94's . The 94's are pre and post 64 in several calibers, and I have had excellent service from them.
    I'd rather a post 64 Winchester 94 than a Braztech Rossi 92 anyday but that's another story and lesson learned.

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc.Holliday View Post
    + 1 goodsteel; I have Winchester 73's ; 86's, 92's and 94's . The 94's are pre and post 64 in several calibers, and I have had excellent service from them.
    I'd rather a post 64 Winchester 94 than a Braztech Rossi 92 anyday but that's another story and lesson learned.
    Now now, don't go knockin the Rossi's. I've been in and out of those too, and I own one. Love them 92's. Like the Marlins, everything that makes them rough and unweildy is due to an excess of material that can easily be stoned down. Many have said that the twist rate is all wrong for them, (including Felix) but I find my 44 to deliver very acceptable accuracy at 50 yards so far. I will shoot it further one of these days, but dang it! You start ringing steel with that puppy at 50 yards, and very shortly, you find yourself all eat up with empty brass!
    On the "make me grin-ometer" I give the Rossi a 7. The Marlin 45-70's are my real heartthrobs though. The one and only issue I have with the 45-70 is that it drinks lead like a wino on a binge. But its sooooooo worth it!
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy Doc.Holliday's Avatar
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    Yes knockin Rossi's on any forum can get downright ugly; Ha ha . All I know is I've never stoned polished sanded ground on any actions; or changed magazine springs followers spring kits sights or redone any unsatisfactory wood finish's on any of my post 64 Winchesters. Guess I get more pleasure out of shooting than fixing.
    The other thing that up here in the GREAT WHITE NORTH we got retailers and distributors of Rossi ; we got one repair depot in Quebec which has no parts and apparently can't get parts and never could get parts. So if you work on it you better be real careful cause if you break it you are S.O.L.. Part of my experience for what its worth.
    Kind Regards
    Doc

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy

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    If you want to refinish a post '64 Winchester (and pay more than the gun cost you) - go to Robar in AZ and order out their NP3+ finish - it's wonderful - but you DO pay for your pleasure.

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Just had a client come in tonight with a couple guns he wanted me to cut the barrels down on to 17"
    One was a beat up Remington 760. No problem. Then he pulled out this immaculate Winchester model 88....................
    The bluing was perfect except for a little wear on the right side of the muzzle. I told him "I don't mean to tell you what to do with your own firearms, but are you absolutely sure you want me to do this?"
    He gave me a sheepish sidways glance and asked "bad idea?"
    I told him that he could easily sell that rifle for enough money to buy a less expensive one and cover my fees.
    He then asked if I thought that would hurt the value some?
    I told him it would probably make the rifle worth half what it is now, and that while I will do anything he requires, I would be loath to cut the barrel on this fine piece of American craftsmanship.
    He thought better of it, and decided to leave it alone.
    Whew!!!
    I think I should get a good deed award or something.

    This rifle was truly imaculate, and pretty much underscores what I mentioned earlier. The action was butter smooth, and was well finished inside and out. They quite literally "don't make 'em like that anymore"!
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  16. #36
    In Remembrance
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    Glad to hear you let him know he was making a mistake.

  17. #37
    Boolit Bub
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    I seem to talk more people out of me doing work for them then the other way around. I just can't take cutting up some fine piece of history.

    Chris

  18. #38
    Boolit Master Mauser48's Avatar
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    I recently picked up a marlin 336 made in 1952. Doesn't even have wear on the loading gate. Got it for 400. I highly recommend them.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    IMO: Anything (original) Winchester will always have a inflated price tag. As will J/M Marlin very soon. Expect to pay their price. Or buy there copy and settle for second shelf. "That's how it is."

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    If I understand some posts, Winchester has made a good 94 in 50 years. New ones cost $1500+ aren't worth that much?

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