Accuracy Expectations at 25 yards with cast bullets

[44man]

My friend has a Dan Wesson 1911 and came to shoot. I shot it Creedmore at 50 yards and got a 1/2" group of five. I told him to keep that load but he never did. Every time he comes he changes something so it is spray and pray. I sold him my SRH and gave him loads that could hit a pop can at 200 yards but he never comes with the right loads. He even uses my boolits, comes to cast or I make them for him. Just what makes him change the load?
In the end it does not matter because I put cardboard deer targets out for him and he pokes the center out but will miss a live deer by 10 yards.
I did the work but he still thinks he can do better.
I did build a few 1911's that would poke one hole groups at 30 yards, too much work for me anymore. Lapping slides and fitting triggers and links. Had to make links from the back of mill files to fit.
Made many longer Ruger transfer bars from tool steel by hand so a 1-1/2# trigger pull would not drop the transfer bar. A real pain with hardening and tempering. I made a mistake on one when it did not fit right. Had to heat a place to change it and it broke. I should have done the hardening and tempering all over again. Don't fool with steel, Mine has gone 79,000 rounds done right.

[35 Whelen]

[QUOTE=44man;2977888]Never a Keith, can't pull a cylinder.
Now that I have larger guns with a LOT of recoil, things still hold true and a Keith from any is a waste of lead. [QUOTE]

Pure, unadulterated balderdash with brown smelly stuff oozing from all orifices.

Danger Will Robison. Seek advice elsewhere when someone tells you a Keith bullet won't work, PERIOD, and when someone tells you they're shooting 1 1/2" groups @ 200 yds. with handgun....but especially when they make both statements in the same post.

35W

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Unless the person giving the advice has won serious matches in silhouette competition, in which case it might be wise to listen.
Just because the Keith bullet was the top of the ladder 80 years ago doesn't mean it still is, necessarily.
It is all down to what level of accuracy you expect/are satisfied with.

[cbrick]

Pure, unadulterated balderdash with brown smelly stuff oozing from all orifices.

Danger Will Robison. Seek advice elsewhere when someone tells you a Keith bullet won't work, PERIOD, and when someone tells you they're shooting 1 1/2" groups @ 200 yds. with handgun....but especially when they make both statements in the same post. 35W

Not so fast, what you see in the picture is 5 shots from a 10" FA 41 mag, scoped from the bench. That target is at 150 meters (164 yards), the target size is 4 1/2" from the top of the leg to the edge of the back. Lead splatters laterally when striking steel so the group is smaller than it looks.



Just because some can't do it has no bearing at all on whether someone else can. Before you call someone a liar learn how to do it yourself.

Rick

[Cornbread]

I think 35 Whelen's issue was with the absolutes taken by the poster that Kieth bullets won't work "period" in any high recoil revolver. I have a 45 colt and a 454 Casull that absolutely love 260gr water dropped COWW Kieth bullets sized to .452 travelling at 1200 fps out of the Ruger 45 Colt and 1500fps in the Casull. For the Ruger 45 Colt that Kieth bullet will shoot touching bullet holes at 25 yards, open sights with a rest very easily day in and day out. On my best days I can do it without a rest.

I have two other 454s one by Taurus and one by Magnum research that HATE Kieth bullets and I can't keep a reliable 4" group with them but if I switch to a 260gr NOE RNFP with those two I can shoot 1" rested groups at 50 yards all day long.....so long as I haven't had caffeine as it gives me the shakes really bad.

Out of those pistols 2 are single action, 2 are double, all are open sights. Each one is different.

Saying Kieth bullets don't work "period" just because they don't work well out of one person's guns is asinine. Absolutes like that in the world of cast bullets simply have no place. Every gun is different and working with your load and bullet styles to get that gun dialed in is why so many of us have notebooks for each gun we own.

Some guns like softer lead, some like harder lead, some like to be pushed hard, some like mid range loads etc. the list goes on forever. The best we can do is to take what we see going on with the person's gun and if we had a similar situation with one of ours let them know how we resolved it. That same thing might make their issue worse or it could work. There are very few things that I have found work in every gun I own. One of those few things is Carnuba Red lube, every gun I own likes it, but I'll never say it will work for everyone else too because I fully expect I will someday own a gun that will hate it. Locking yourself into absolutes is a dangerous thing if you want to get the best accuracy you can for your guns with cast.

[35 Whelen]

I think 35 Whelen's issue was with the absolutes taken by the poster that Kieth bullets won't work "period" in any high recoil revolver. I have a 45 colt and a 454 Casull that absolutely love 260gr water dropped COWW Kieth bullets sized to .452 travelling at 1200 fps out of the Ruger 45 Colt and 1500fps in the Casull. For the Ruger 45 Colt that Kieth bullet will shoot touching bullet holes at 25 yards, open sights with a rest very easily day in and day out. On my best days I can do it without a rest.

I have two other 454s one by Taurus and one by Magnum research that HATE Kieth bullets and I can't keep a reliable 4" group with them but if I switch to a 260gr NOE RNFP with those two I can shoot 1" rested groups at 50 yards all day long.....so long as I haven't had caffeine as it gives me the shakes really bad.

Out of those pistols 2 are single action, 2 are double, all are open sights. Each one is different.

Saying Kieth bullets don't work "period" just because they don't work well out of one person's guns is asinine. Absolutes like that in the world of cast bullets simply have no place. Every gun is different and working with your load and bullet styles to get that gun dialed in is why so many of us have notebooks for each gun we own.

Some guns like softer lead, some like harder lead, some like to be pushed hard, some like mid range loads etc. the list goes on forever. The best we can do is to take what we see going on with the person's gun and if we had a similar situation with one of ours let them know how we resolved it. That same thing might make their issue worse or it could work. There are very few things that I have found work in every gun I own. One of those few things is Carnuba Red lube, every gun I own likes it, but I'll never say it will work for everyone else too because I fully expect I will someday own a gun that will hate it. Locking yourself into absolutes is a dangerous thing if you want to get the best accuracy you can for your guns with cast.

Thank you Mr. Bread. You said what I was trying to say only you're much more tactful!

35W

[robertbank]

Absolutes in any walk of life are dangerous and often just dumb. I have a Keith design I use in my 45 Colt that shoots as well as I can hold - which isn't saying much but at handgun ranges using open sights I feel I can hit any man/bear size target in a defensive situation. I disliked bullseye shooting when I had eyes that would cooperate. If I could I wouldn't but hats off to those who enjoy that style of shooting. Place your hand over your chest. I can put six in there quickly inside of 25 yards and more with a pistol. Good enough for me.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

Unless the person giving the advice has won serious matches in silhouette competition, in which case it might be wise to listen.
Just because the Keith bullet was the top of the ladder 80 years ago doesn't mean it still is, necessarily.
It is all down to what level of accuracy you expect/are satisfied with.

Rick and I are serious. Both of us have been very serious IHMSA shooters. You darn sure better believe Rick can poke a very small hole at 150 to 200 meters.
My best group ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards from Creedmore.
Back in the day it was done with open sights.
I shot all guns in IHMSA at International class. I expect Rick was as high. There is no higher class.
Yes, darn right I have shot many groups to 1/2" with revolvers at 100 yards.Attachment 119918The hole in the top of this can is 5 shots at 100 yards. Had to stand the can back up after every shot.
Tell Rick he is full of junk. Wish i could swear

[ole 5 hole group]

I've done some shooting over the years and I know the difference between skill and luck relative to my shooting. A couple weeks ago I re-tested some loads I previously had worked up for my 1911. This is luck with a skillful 1st shot touching the inner ring.

Attachment 119912

This is my rested skill level at 25-yards

Attachment 119913Attachment 119914Attachment 119915

Now this is my 15 yoa granddaughter's skill level at 50 feet with a 45 Colt - offhand I might add. She has to shoot on a weekly basis to maintain this level - but, she's pretty good with that SW 25-2 converted by Bowen to 45 Colt.

Attachment 119916 Attachment 119922


100 yards rested with iron sights from a 500 Linebaugh Maximum - I can shoot larger groups, no problem. Offhand, I can really shoot some patterns.

Attachment 119917

For those shooting 1 or 2 inch groups at 200 yards - God gave you a gift that I missed out on, but then again, I missed out on a lot of stuff.

[ErnieBishop]

Never played the IHMSA game.
Until last month, it had been a long time since I had shot a revolver for group.
The way I look at accuracy, it is a systems approach.
Quality of the gun (including the sights), combined with the quality of the ammo (determining what THAT gun likes), the rest system, and of course the skill of said shooter.
My eyes are not going to do well with irons anymore for precision work, so I will have a reflex, dot sight or scope of some kind for accuracy work. Even if I take it off and use irons afterwards, I know I will be more accurate with a sight of some kind.

To the OP,
One of the best things you can do is to find a mentor for both reloading and shooting.

[cbrick]

I don't know about a gift but I can tell you all about years of working at it. I shot NRA long range handgun (mostly revolver) and I had been working at it for 10 years before the guys that could do it even noticed I was there. I kept working on it till I was giving those guys a run for their money and even beating them every now and then. Kept working at it till I was one of the guys those guys had to beat. I can assure you I didn't run down to the LGS, grab a revolver and a box of factory loads off shelf and start doing it, that would be a true gift from above (and take all the fun out of it).

Not a gift but a strong desire and years of practice, years of honing mental discipline on the firing line, years of taking no half steps in the loading room. Years of tremendous fun, even on a bad day when you know where ya screwed up.

Rick

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I think 35 Whelen's issue was with the absolutes taken by the poster that Kieth bullets won't work "period" in any high recoil revolver. I have a 45 colt and a 454 Casull that absolutely love 260gr water dropped COWW Kieth bullets sized to .452 travelling at 1200 fps out of the Ruger 45 Colt and 1500fps in the Casull. For the Ruger 45 Colt that Kieth bullet will shoot touching bullet holes at 25 yards, open sights with a rest very easily day in and day out. On my best days I can do it without a rest.

I have two other 454s one by Taurus and one by Magnum research that HATE Kieth bullets and I can't keep a reliable 4" group with them but if I switch to a 260gr NOE RNFP with those two I can shoot 1" rested groups at 50 yards all day long.....so long as I haven't had caffeine as it gives me the shakes really bad.

Out of those pistols 2 are single action, 2 are double, all are open sights. Each one is different.

Saying Kieth bullets don't work "period" just because they don't work well out of one person's guns is asinine. Absolutes like that in the world of cast bullets simply have no place. Every gun is different and working with your load and bullet styles to get that gun dialed in is why so many of us have notebooks for each gun we own.

Some guns like softer lead, some like harder lead, some like to be pushed hard, some like mid range loads etc. the list goes on forever. The best we can do is to take what we see going on with the person's gun and if we had a similar situation with one of ours let them know how we resolved it. That same thing might make their issue worse or it could work. There are very few things that I have found work in every gun I own. One of those few things is Carnuba Red lube, every gun I own likes it, but I'll never say it will work for everyone else too because I fully expect I will someday own a gun that will hate it. Locking yourself into absolutes is a dangerous thing if you want to get the best accuracy you can for your guns with cast.

Touching holes at 25yds is quite a bit different from 2 1/2 inches at 500yrs. Not that it isn't nice shooting, I'd certainly be happy with it, but not remotely in the same class.

Elmer obviously had it working enough to suit him, still doesn't make it the be all end all.

[44man]

I don't know about a gift but I can tell you all about years of working at it. I shot NRA long range handgun (mostly revolver) and I had been working at it for 10 years before the guys that could do it even noticed I was there. I kept working on it till I was giving those guys a run for their money and even beating them every now and then. Kept working at it till I was one of the guys those guys had to beat. I can assure you I didn't run down to the LGS, grab a revolver and a box of factory loads off shelf and start doing it, that would be a true gift from above (and take all the fun out of it).

Not a gift but a strong desire and years of practice, years of honing mental discipline on the firing line, years of taking no half steps in the loading room. Years of tremendous fun, even on a bad day when you know where ya screwed up.

Rick

The way it is, Hard work and many years. We have reached the point that if you bring loads here we can tell you what primer you used.
Like Rick, I was hated to be seen on the range. Being poor it was a pain when a guy signed up for 5 guns at a time so it was hours to get on the line. Once there we would laugh and joke all the time, that pissed off the tight butts to no end. One of our friends had a billy club on his spotting scope tripod to bash his shooter when he missed. Of course, he never did but it was funny and to be relaxed meant better shooting. a miss was just a laugh.
At Ohio state I cleaned 20 chickens, 20 pigs, 20 turkeys and 19 rams, clean missed the last ram, my fault.
You have not lived until you hit 20 turkeys at 150 meters. SBH, open sights.
ask Rick about turkeys.
I went from unclassified to International quicker then anyone with all guns from single shot and revolver production to unlimited. I shot with Josie Engle, Boyde Carpenter and Blacky Sleeva.
Shoots were won with shoot off chickens at 200 meters. The first 40 were just gotten rid of. Miss one only and you would lose. You better hit 5 chickens at 200 meters.
i also won .22 state with a new Ruger Mark II with no sight settings. Missed the first pig, turkey and ram but my spotter seen the hits. I adjusted and shot all 5 shoot off chickens at 100 yards. 57 out of 60. Open sight production.
I shot Belfountain, Lima, Youngstown, Ozark, a club in PA, PSC in VA and Quantico marine base.
Never made the nationals because of work and money.
Rick knows the game. We shot better groups at 200 meters then some of you do at 25 yards.
Once at the club I belonged to, guys with rifles and scopes were shooting a 6"X6" steel swinger at the turkey line, about 400 yards. I asked if we could shoot at it. My first shot was low from my BFR .475, I needed to set the red dot bottom on the 500 meter berm and hit the swinger the next 4 shots. Creedmore. I gave my gun to Pete and he hit 3 times. Some rifle shooters packed up and left but some came to see what we were shooting, could not believe a revolver.

[cbrick]

Shoots were won with shoot off chickens at 200 meters. The first 40 were just gotten rid of. Miss one only and you would lose. You better hit 5 chickens at 200 meters.

hehe, Jim, your age is showing, that's old school. I ran the Los Angeles Silhouette Club for several years, one of the things I started was a match called The Extravaganza of Silhouette, a huge success. By the third annual held on Labor Day weekend it was a three day event with shooters from 5 different continents and too many states to count, shoot from 7:00 AM and last entry to the line at 5:00 Saturday and Sunday, on Monday started at 7:00 and last relay at 12:00. There were 650 entries fired through in 2 1/2 days on 10 banks of targets and I had a half day to resolve all shoot-offs, compile all results and hold the trophy presentation. I was in a pickle to be sure, there were shooters there that could hit all five chickens time after time meaning the shoot-offs would drag on forever. What to do? I set up the range with the normal chicken shoot-off targets at 200 for AAA class and below. For the Master Class shooters including revolver I had a surprise waiting for them, 1/2 size chickens at 200 meters. I don't remember the size in inches of the chicken but you can palm one in your hand. Lot's of grumbling and moaning but still there were some that cleaned a bank of 5. It did get the shoot-offs finished much quicker so it was a success. That was the first match to use 1/2 size targets in shoot-offs but it's pretty standard now throughout silhouette, both IHMSA and NRA.

The IHMSA California State Director was there and he was dumbfounded by the shoot-offs and wrote a long article in the IHMSA News about it. That was the biggest three day handgun silhouette match ever held. IHMSA has had more entries during their International Championships but that is a 7 day event, not 3. In the two and a half days of competition, not including the shoot-offs there was more than 30,000 rounds sent down range, all from single shots and revolvers. It was the day shoot-offs changed forever in handgun silhouette.

Rick

[PAT303]

44man,thanks for answering my questions. Pat

[35 Whelen]

The OP asks for typical groups from a handgun rest at 25 yds. and he got:

"I shoot 2 1/2" groups at 500 yds. with a revolver."
"I can hold a handgun more steady than a Ransom Rest."
"Keith style bullets are a waste of lead."
"I can tell what primer you used blindfolded, with my hands tied behind my back."
Etc., etc. ad nauseum.

Senility...?
Deliriousness...?
Old men starved for attention...?

Ignore button.....YES!!!

[PAT303]

35 Whelen,have you ever wondered why people don't want to post results they have achieved and don't want to share information?,your post adds nothing to this thread and nothing to the world of cast boolit shooting,the best thing you have written is the last line,don't let the door hit you in the backside on your way out. Pat

[BCgunworks]

Here is the answer without all the bs.

Its kind of a loaded question with a ton of variables.
Without any real gun work and just modest load development you should be able to match standard factory ammo.
So if your shooting 3" groups with your Wally World ammo you should be able to match that with ease with some modest load development.

If your shooting worse than YOU do with standard off the shelf ammo you need some more load development.

Once you you get good and comfortable you may need some special work done to dial your gun in for cast.

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelen,have you ever wondered why people don't want to post results they have achieved and don't want to share information?,your post adds nothing to this thread and nothing to the world of cast boolit shooting,the best thing you have written is the last line,don't let the door hit you in the backside on your way out. Pat

Oh I'm not leaving, just "Ignoring" those that spew the BS (You're the latest, by the way).

Thanks for your post BCgunworks. Succinct, to the point and spot-on.

35W

[cbrick]

Oh I'm not leaving, just "Ignoring" those that spew the BS (You're the latest, by the way).

Thanks for your post BCgunworks. Succinct, to the point and spot-on. 35W

You could do me a favor and add me to that list. Thanks, appreciate it.

Rick