Accuracy Expectations at 25 yards with cast bullets

[Lonegun1894]

Last time out a few days ago, I got a 5" group with my Ruger SP101 2 1/4" .357 Mag at 50 yds offhand. With a rest I can usually do about 1.5-2" @25yds with this gun, and most of mine have a longer sight radius, making shooting them easier. Most of mine do 1-1.5" at 25yds, and a couple do better than that, with the best two doing that at 100 yds. Like has been said though, the single action revolvers grip is sensitive to grip, and that includes the way it recoils. So same exact starting grip, same position, same tightness of grip, same recoil, same everything. Anything changes and your POI and group size changes. What helped my groups is gripping the gun with my right hand, and cocking with my left, every time. If possible, have a known good shooter watch what you're doing and watch for any changes in your grip, position, etc. The more consistent you are, the more consistently your revolver will shoot. After that, it is just a matter of trigger time and a lot of fine tuning your technique. You will see some huge improvements, and then the improvements slow down. You still keep improving, but it just isn't as dramatic. Stick with it, and soon you're doing at 100 yds what you're currently doing at 25yds. And then it is 5" @100, and then 4", and then, it may be 4", or 2", or maybe less, but you hit a wall and the increments are in 1/16" instead of 1-2", but that's what keeps us all working to improve and never give up.

[dubber123]

And if you are relatively new to handgunning, stick with it. If you have someone local who is good at it, don't be afraid to hit them up for a little coaching, most shooters are happy to help. Don't bother asking someone who isn't good, as they are just as happy to share their bad habits with you.

My first "good" gun was a police trade in 4" S&W model 10 with the tapered barrel. I shot many different loads, and if I got 4" at 25 yards off a solid rest, I was lucky. Some groups ran 6"+. I KNEW it wasn't me. Well, I kept shooting it, finally got into handloading so I could afford to shoot more, and slowly groups tightened. Lo and behold my inaccurate gun is really a sub 1" gun. Some of the poor grouping was surely the factory junk I was shooting, but 99% was surely me. Keep at it.

[Thumbcocker]

Dry firing is your friend.

[Cornbread]

From a rest of some type like sandbags etc. I expect 1" - 1.5" outside circumcircle from my guns using cast with 1.5" being more the average than 1" simply because I shoot mostly .452 caliber bullets. At that size if you have two side by side but not touching the outside circumcircle is already at 1" and I know you are supposed to calculate groups by center point not by outside circumcircle but it's just easier and quicker for me to judge my groups this way. I know all the guns I own are capable of this, some days though especially if I drink caffeine the best I can do is much larger than the best the guns can do. Caffeine and I are not friends.

[slughammer]

"................Shooting a revolver off a rest is a learned art. I use a front rest to support the frame just ahead of the trigger guard. I rest my forearms right behind my wrists on sandbags. You yourself need to find the sweet spot for consistant angle/grip placement from shot to shot. Don't rest the butt of the gun on a sandbag as i will change POI from shot to shot.....

Sounds right to me. I've shot plenty of groups off of bags similar to your technique. I don't use the rear bags under my wrist; perhaps my front bag is lower than yours. (My forearms are touching the bench). Same style, different shooters, repeatable results.

Only three other pieces of advice for the OP.
Wrap your sandbag with a piece of leather to keep the blast at the cylinder gap from blowing holes in it.
If the load is good and your technique is too, then fix the gun.
Once you have a reasonable load and an accurate gun, stand up and shoot.

[Cornbread]

Second the idea of putting something down to protect the sandbags! If you forget to do this you can ruin the sandbags real quick.

[warf73]

My goal is with a standing 2 handed hold, double action putting everything inside the X ring. Inside 15 yards it's very do able, at 25 yards I can keep everything inside the 9 ring or tighter. Granted that’s nothing great but I don't shoot with a rest and groups are with 5 cylinders (8 shot revolver).
I started off close and mastered each distance (3yards, 7yards, and 15yards ) before going out further.
For me I feel I've mastered a distance once I can put 40 rounds inside the X ring (5 cylinders).

Started at 3 yards which sounds close and really easy but you can still throw a group easily if you don’t pay attention. At the end of mastering that distance (same range session) go out to 7 yards and shot for a group (3 cylinders worth) and called it a day.

Next time at the range warmed up at 3 yards ( 3 cylinders) then out to the 7 yard line and started shooting there paying attention to my hand hold, foot placement, all the little things that will add up once you get out further but might not mean beans up close. Once mastered at 7 yards going out to 15 yards and shooting (3 cylinders) then call it a day.

Next time warm up with 1 cylinder at 3 yards, 3 cylinders at 7 yards. Now the jitters are gone your mind is in the right place now start shooting at 15 yards. At this distance I started have some issues (finger in to far on the trigger) that didn’t show up at the closer distances but can really be see now. It took 3 range sessions to master this distance for me.

I'm currently at the 25 yard line, warm up is 1 cylinder at 3 yards, 7 yards and 3 at 15 yards. Then I start shooting for the group at the 25 yard line.


Trigger time is your friend with the any firearm but for me a handgun it’s really needed. I'm an ok shot with a handgun, but there are others that are great shots that probly can give you better advice than what I wrote.

But....... it works for me maybe it will for you.

[osteodoc08]

A quarter is .955" across. I use it as a reference when eyeballing group measurements until I can break out the calipers.

A 2" freehand group at 25 yards is excellent to me. 2" at 50 from a bench is excellent to me. I strive for better but am very happy with that level of accuracy. I've had 1" and 1-1/2" groups with regularity at 50 yards if having a good day with a known good load.

4" at 25 yards freehand is still not bad. I'd call it average for an average shooter with an average gun. Nothing wrong with it. Keep at it and keep the load development up.

[osteodoc08]

Subtracting out the .410" boolit that's a 1.16" group at 52 yards with either a Lyman 410459 or MiHa 258. Can't remember. I was using 296 IIRC.

[dtknowles]

A quarter is .955" across. I use it as a reference when eyeballing group measurements until I can break out the calipers.

A 2" freehand group at 25 yards is excellent to me. 2" at 50 from a bench is excellent to me. I strive for better but am very happy with that level of accuracy. I've had 1" and 1-1/2" groups with regularity at 50 yards if having a good day with a known good load.

4" at 25 yards freehand is still not bad. I'd call it average for an average shooter with an average gun. Nothing wrong with it. Keep at it and keep the load development up.

Average shooter around here can't clean a rack of 6 ea. 8 inch plates at 25 yards with 10 shots. That's from watching them and assuming that the few than can are above average.

Tim

[44man]

Off hand escapes me now at my age. It only takes a few years to get the shakes.
My suggestion is to NOT GET OLD!
However from the bench I have made cast shoot better then jacketed so I can say for a fact, cast boolits do shoot.

[tazman]

Off hand escapes me now at my age. It only takes a few years to get the shakes.
My suggestion is to NOT GET OLD!
However from the bench I have made cast shoot better then jacketed so I can say for a fact, cast boolits do shoot.

I hear that. I am there now and in the process of getting shakier. I am just glad I can still shoot the pistols and hit adequately sized targets.
For me a 2 inch group at 15 yards offhand means I was having a good day. My revolver is capable of much better.

[ole 5 hole group]

With out a machine rest, scope, or a keyboard, all of which combined serve to inordinately tighten groups, you can hope to average 2-3 inches at 25 yards.

You may do better, and the gun certainly should but that is not the average that you can expect. Sometimes, we here on the boards get a little too exuberant in our claims, remembering that one really good group, but ignoring the several other mediocre groups we shot before and after. 1 inch groups at 25 yards from a stock revolver not in a PROPERLY set up Ransom rest with iron sights is not a reasonable average to strive for.

All that is probably true for some but it's a pretty poor blank across the board statement.

I can out shoot a ransom rest easily, I've never gotten good groups using one. Nor have I ever shrank my groups with a keyboard and it's insulting for someone that can't do it to insinuate that others can't either and if they say they do they did it only with a keyboard.Rick

No disrespect intended to anyone, so don't anyone take it as such.

Rick, seems you took that quote personally. 1st off I think Rintinglen was spot-on and 2nd - Rintinglen advised a PROPERLY set up Ransom Rest. If properly set-up and operated, I seriously doubt you can shoot better than a properly set up and operated mechanical rest. You might be able to match it at 25 yards but that would be about it - 50 yards, never seen a good marksmen do it yet. Not properly set-up and operated - yup, they can be beat.

I shoot both indoors and outdoors quite often and see maybe a couple hundred different non-competitive shooters on the line through out the year. 95% of them don't shoot small groups, so I would say the majority of non-competitive shooters can't consistently shoot 1 inch groups or smaller at 25 yards. 2 to 3 inch groups at 25 yards is very good for most pistol/revolver non-competitive shooters off the bench, as it seems not all the bullets want to play nice together - calling a shot out and not measuring it in the group is not allowed.

Most non-competitive shooters I know will tell you the size of their smallest group shot but while at the range they just don't seem to be able to duplicate that group upon demand - most times not even close.

As far as keyboard commandos - well, I've read some posts on forums over the years advising they could consistently shoot under 2 inches off hand at 50 yards - well, I see no reason why they shouldn't be shooting in competitive State matches and possess an NRA High Master's Classification and probably a world record to boot. I just take it with a grain of salt, as I've been there and I know that one doesn't possess a Master Class Classification Card and then have a bad day and shoot Marksman scores.

Most Expert Classified competitive shooters and all Master and High Master's keep 10-rounds within 3.3 inches at 25 yards in both timed and rapid fire. 50 yards the Expert will keep everything within 8 inches and the Master's will do better - some a lot better.

Everyone gets better with a lot of quality trigger time - so just find the time & money and shoot more.

[robertbank]

I shoot both indoors and outdoors quite often and see maybe a couple hundred different non-competitive shooters on the line through out the year. 95% of them don't shoot small groups, so I would say the majority of non-competitive shooters can't consistently shoot 1 inch groups or smaller at 25 yards. 2 to 3 inch groups at 25 yards is very good for most pistol/revolver non-competitive shooters off the bench, as it seems not all the bullets want to play nice together - calling a shot out and not measuring it in the group is not allowed.


As far as keyboard commandos - well, I've read some posts on forums over the years advising they could consistently shoot under 2 inches off hand at 50 yards - well, I see no reason why they shouldn't be shooting in competitive State matches and possess an NRA High Master's Classification and probably a world record to boot. I just take it with a grain of salt, as I've been there and I know that one doesn't possess a Master Class Classification Card and then have a bad day and shoot Marksman scores.

Most Expert Classified competitive shooters and all Master and High Master's keep 10-rounds within 3.3 inches at 25 yards in both timed and rapid fire. 50 yards the Expert will keep everything within 8 inches and the Master's will do better - some a lot better.

Thanks I was beginning to think I should take up checkers. Not getting old would help. Patience, eyes and patience ends early...besides shooting the equivalent of bullseye shooting is much the same as watching paint dry IMHO ...just not my thing.

Take Care

Bob

[cbrick]

Well ole 5 hole, I'll try and take your advice and shoot more.

As for all the rest, I do have NRA Master classification in four different categories, AAA in a couple of others plus more than a few NRA State and NRA National Championship trophy's including individual and team entries.

Don't know about 25 yards and under, in long range handgun shooting starts at 50 and goes to 200 meters. No high master either, master class is as high as there is.

As for the ransom rest it's not just me, wasn't anyone else at the club could do as well with it either. Set up correctly? Yeah, I think so. Besides, I never did generate much interest in what it could do, was far more interested in what I could do, can't compete with the gun in a machine, had to have it in your hand.

Rick

[220]

My goal is with a standing 2 handed hold, double action putting everything inside the X ring. Inside 15 yards it's very do able, at 25 yards I can keep everything inside the 9 ring or tighter. Granted that’s nothing great but I don't shoot with a rest and groups are with 5 cylinders (8 shot revolver).

We use a similar target minus the head for some matches here in Aus.
4 second series at 10y from a holster I can hold the 10 ring, same with 15 second series at 25y, 6 second series at 25y Im happy to hold the 8 ring.
This is with loads that I know will hold the 10 ring at 50y and go very close to holding the X ring. Standing is a very different scenario to benching a gun throw in drawing from a holster and time constraints and its even more difficult.
12 shot group at 25m, I blame myself for the high shot
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/up...3/2c574503.jpg

[warf73]

We use a similar target minus the head for some matches here in Aus.
4 second series at 10y from a holster I can hold the 10 ring, same with 15 second series at 25y, 6 second series at 25y Im happy to hold the 8 ring.
This is with loads that I know will hold the 10 ring at 50y and go very close to holding the X ring. Standing is a very different scenario to benching a gun throw in drawing from a holster and time constraints and its even more difficult.
12 shot group at 25m, I blame myself for the high shot
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/up...3/2c574503.jpg

Very nice group and with time constraints makes it more inpressive.

[220]

Very nice group and with time constraints makes it more inpressive.

I wish, lol pic is what it will do off a bench. Fairly typical group for my 686, target is a Olympic 10m air pistol target so the black is about 2 1/4" in size. I like using them for load testing as they take up little room and easy to transport home to record details.

Another thing that has been mentioned and worth considering is how people measure group size, best edge, centre to centre or worst edge. It can make nearly 1" difference to group size with the bigger cals, I measure on centres simply because it is how I have always done rifle groups. I think nearly all pistol competitions use best edge scoring so inside to inside does have some justification with pistols.

[TCLouis]

alexanderkidd

How many boolits, powders, loads have you tried?

Some guns are very persnicketty, others like all loads and some better..

I have had both and the persnickety ones are a pain in the kister.

[tazman]

alexanderkidd

How many boolits, powders, loads have you tried?

Some guns are very persnicketty, others like all loads and some better..

I have had both and the persnickety ones are a pain in the kister.

I hear you and agree.
I currently have a revolver that shoots everything I have stuck in the chambers well and a few loads great. I am not a good enough shot to get the best out of it though.
Perhaps with optics and a good rest setup I might be able to approach it's capabilities but I am getting too shaky with age and my eyesight is too poor.