Accuracy Expectations at 25 yards with cast bullets

[ErnieBishop]

With a revolver?
With a revolver with iron sights?
I think you are referring to rifle BR matches.
If I am right, people were doubting someone shooting a revolver at 500 yards that grouped 1.5".
I don't think anyone here is doubting what a BR rifle shooter can do at distance (primarily 600 and 1K here).

we shoot 500m fly shoot here,unless you shoot under 2''-3'' at 500m your not in the top 20,like posted already,you blokes need to get out more and see what really good shooters can do. Pat

[cbrick]

With a revolver?
With a revolver with iron sights?
I think you are referring to rifle BR matches.
If I am right, people were doubting someone shooting a revolver at 500 yards that grouped 1.5".
I don't think anyone here is doubting what a BR rifle shooter can do at distance (primarily 600 and 1K here).

There are four different types of posters in this thread.

Those on short range revolver.
Those on long range revolver.
Those on bench rest rifle.
Those that can't figure that out and calling everybody a liar.

In reality should be nobody get their shorts in a wad. All good entertainment.

Rick

[9.3X62AL]

Someone capable of repeatable 1.5" groups at 500 yards with a revolver belongs at Camp Perry every summer, and at the Olympic Games every 4 years. A skill set of that sort is preternatural. I think that is the basis of the doubts expressed in the body of this thread. I have seen some phenomenal shooting at IHMSA matches in Production Revolver, capabilities that far exceed any I could muster on my best day. But I'm sorry--I can't accept a few of the claims made in this thread and others concerning revolver grouping ability at great distance, whether fixture-fired or handheld. These strain credibility past the point of delusion.

[Lonegun1894]

I think what gets some people is that they keep thinking that you can't hit something at longer ranges. What I was always taught was to practice out to double the distance that I plan to hunt to. It has taught me that I can hit out to ranges that I wouldn't have believed possible. We all have seen shooters who have been worse shooters than us, and better shooters than us. What that tells me is that I can outshoot some of you here, and then turn around and be outshot by others. Personally, I like shooting with the ones who can outshoot me, cause they have skills I don't, and I will eventually learn something and be a better shooter for it.

As to the "unbelievable" groups, we have all shot groups that we can't seem to repeat. My last one was a .75" cloverleaf at 100 yds with an iron-sighted Ruger SBH 5.5" shooting a Lee 240gr SWC TL, standing and without a rest. I almost fell over when I saw that group, cause most days, I have a hard time keeping 6 shots out of that revolver in a 4" group at 100yds with a rest. And I was trying a new load so put up gift wrap on the backboard to make sure I could find my bullet holes on that test. There were no other holes, and I have been trying to repeat that group at 100yds again, and have been unable to. My closest to date is 2.75", and most are still in the 4-6" range, with a rest. I doubt I will ever repeat that group, but if it was possible to do it once, it should be possible to do it again. Now I just have to keep trying and hope I get lucky again someday, cause I don't expect to ever be that good. I mean, I can do that with a handful of my scoped rifles, but not with iron sighted rifles. So I KNOW that that one group was a fluke. Yes, it happened once, but it is FAR from what I am capable of on demand. And my on demand performance is what counts in my book, and not some happy accident.

[BCgunworks]

Someone capable of repeatable 1.5" groups at 500 yards with a revolver belongs at Camp Perry every summer, and at the Olympic Games every 4 years. A skill set of that sort is preternatural. I think that is the basis of the doubts expressed in the body of this thread. I have seen some phenomenal shooting at IHMSA matches in Production Revolver, capabilities that far exceed any I could muster on my best day. But I'm sorry--I can't accept a few of the claims made in this thread and others concerning revolver grouping ability at great distance, whether fixture-fired or handheld. These strain credibility past the point of delusion.

Yup. Agree! And that person hasn't posted anymore since the first several people called bs.

[BCgunworks]

I reckon with the above being stated.....we have all made our point and prob should just let it go....

[ErnieBishop]

Even though it has gone off original topic, I have enjoyed guys share what groups they are getting.
I get the wallet groups/once in a blue moon. They are not sustained accuracy, but they are sure fun when they happen.
The only thing that has stood out to me as a tall tale is 500 yards with revolver/iron sights 1.5" (Whether it was a claimed 5 or 6 shot group).

This is the one, where I would say, "Show Me."
Doable with a bench rig? Oh Yes.
Doable with a specialty pistol? Oh yes.

If someone accomplishes something outside the pale, then that person should be able to have credible evidence to prove that (If they want it to be accepted as truth), like witnesses, video, etc...

I enjoy pushing the envelope, but I know that I need to have evidence if it is to be accepted.

[dtknowles]

I doubt some of the claims made in this thread (an others) but I will not call them out as liars or BS. I just have doubts. In my mind, incredible claims require a higher standard of evidence. That kind of evidence is hard to provide on the internet, I almost have to witness it myself. I hope my doubts are not because I don't want them to be true but just a reasonable suspicion.

I think I posted earlier in this thread so this might be a repeat. For the OP, 2 inches or less bench rest groups (25 yards) with good ammo and a moderately priced ($600 range) Revolver, if you can't get to that you either need to practice more or something is wrong with the revolver. One inch groups with at .22 LR semiauto of similar quality. If I can't shoot the one inch groups with the .22 then I know that I am the problem and need to practice because the .22 will do a bit better than that. My guns, me shooting. Others do better I am sure but rarely where I shoot. Where I shoot, when I hit the 8 inch plate at 100 yards with an iron sighted revolver it turns heads even if I miss once in a while.

Tim

[dvnv]

Even though it has gone off original topic, I have enjoyed guys share what groups they are getting.
I get the wallet groups/once in a blue moon. They are not sustained accuracy, but they are sure fun when they happen.
The only thing that has stood out to me as a tall tale is 500 yards with revolver/iron sights 1.5" (Whether it was a claimed 5 or 6 shot group).

This is the one, where I would say, "Show Me."
Doable with a bench rig? Oh Yes.
Doable with a specialty pistol? Oh yes.

If someone accomplishes something outside the pale, then that person should be able to have credible evidence to prove that (If they want it to be accepted as truth), like witnesses, video, etc...

I enjoy pushing the envelope, but I know that I need to have evidence if it is to be accepted.

I believe the quote to which you refer was:

"My best group ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards from Creedmore. "

It does not say if it was with iron sights or how many shots were in the group, nor did he say he could do it again.

[jmort]

Cbrick has the patience of a Saint.

[ErnieBishop]

I stand corrected.
1/2 MOA at 500 yards-Still a remarkable claim.
But, like you said if the # of shots are not listed or the optic or irons, then....

I believe the quote to which you refer was:

"My best group ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards from Creedmore. "

It does not say if it was with iron sights or how many shots were in the group, nor did he say he could do it again.

[robertbank]

Well after walking in our guns two of us using 4.2" Ruger GP-100's and our handloads were able to hit an 18" steel plate about 75% of the time at 100 yards last week end. Nothing special for those who can shoot but not to bad for us. We were using 38spl cases and our cast bullets resting our arms on our shooting bags. No big deal for most here I suspect but not bad for us. My semi-autos aren't quite as accurate as my revolvers and results at that range fall well below 50% for us. Fun though. When it is raining and cool hearing a steel ring out is preferable to patching targets. Besides the Edmonton Oilers weren't playing until the following Monday so what else was a man to do.

Take Care

Bob

[ErnieBishop]

Bob,
If it was fun shooting that way, it was worth it!

[9.3X62AL]

At some point, it might be wise to find a rifle for the 500 yard recreation.

I'll state my biases up front--my shooting centers around hunting applications as its primary focus. Secondary focus is self-defense, and makes up about 15% of the activity. Otherwise, it's about hunting. Grouping? Most of my revolvers can meet BCGunworks' standard most of the time, if I'm paying attention to business. There are times the "fun" aspect of shooting overwhelms my self-discipline at the trigger, and hits widen out. Not to the point of compromised safety, but I have lapses. That's me. I probably lack the patience and discipline required to be a match-quality shooter, the consistency of effort to repeatedly do the same thing the same way time after time--day after day--ad nauseum. It bores me after a short time. Being a hunter and having been a law officer, I have cultivated skills to enable rapid accurate shot placement under compressed timeframes, not using sights on handguns or shotguns to 25-30 yards and on rifles to 50 yards. I very seldom miss under these conditions on still targets, and am almost as good on movers.

It boils down to what you train yourself to do.

[Lonegun1894]

Robertbank,
Way to go! If I may ask, was there an aiming point on the steel plate or was it just a blank plate? I ask because I tend to do much better if I have a small aiming point, and the smaller and more precise, but still visible, the better. For example, instead of shooting at a bullseye and using a 6 o'clock hold like many do, I use a small black square about 1-1.5" across drawn on the back of gift wrap paper (white) when shooting at 100 yds, so just the smallest thing I can see. I make it about 1/2" across at 25 yds. Or shoot at a triangle drawn on the same piece of paper, with a tip down so my sight picture is the perfect textbook sight alignment we are all taught, with the tip of the triangle sitting dead center right on top of the front sight. This way I get an easily visible target, and a VERY fine point to aim at for very precise sight alignment. This always shrinks my groups down a bit, but I tend to use it for when I want the smallest possible groups, such as load development or when pushing myself. The vast majority of the time, I use just the black square because I think it tends to approximate field targets more, being about the size of a rabbits head or smaller. Maybe that will help? Your revolvers with good loads will do much better than just staying on an 18" plate, but now that you know you can hit that thing, I bet your confidence, and skill, improves dramatically in a short time. You have the skills needed, now it's just a matter of fine-tuning them into something that will make jaws drop. When I just want to have some fun, I fill empty coke cans with water and set them on the slope of the berm for reactive targets at 100yds. They're actually kind of boring at 50 yds, but at 100yds, they're just challenging enough that I still miss them with my 4" Security Six about half the time on a good day and 2/3 of the time on an average day, so it keeps it interesting enough to keep trying, but not enough to frustrate me too bad and make me want to quit and go home. Your groups will shrink if you practice. So try different targets to see what you like, and change things up now and then to keep things interesting. Hunting/field use isn't the same every time, so why should practice be?

[44man]

My group was shot with an Ultra Dot by aiming at a tree branch in the area of 26' over steel. I used the BFR 45-70 revolver.
On "demand" NO so don't get shorts in a wad.
What most fail to see is the loading bench is what makes accuracy and a WHOLE lot of work.
Rick understands this concept due to IHMSA experience.
I can never get it across that a revolver is a wonderful gun and can shoot better then anyone knows. yes I have done crazy stuff, never to be done again but the BFR's are the most accurate revolvers ever made and I have more sub 1" groups at 100 yards then I can count and even went to 1/2" on occasion. Yes, it takes a rest and I use Ultra Dots but a scope does improve things, just not for hunting.Attachment 120149 I set these shotgun shells on the side and shot at the bases at 50 yards. I hit 5 in a row but only found 3. BFR in .500 JRH, old Loopy scope. Then I shot at a shotgun shell at 100 yards with the Ultra Dot, sorry I missed the first shot by 1/2" but hit with the second. Attachment 120151 You fellas need to understand it is not my old 76 year old butt, it is the loads used.
I feel like Rick and I are kind of like kin. I don't know why you don't listen to him?
The start is a good gun of course but you still need to make a good gun shoot.
You blame yourself too much when you feed the guns junk.
I bet most of you guys can shoot good enough to do anything but you waste lead with stuff that goes where it wants to go.
I can't allow that and never work anything less then 50 yards and I expect well under 1" or I toss the failure. My little loading book is as big as your hand with one load for each boolit in each caliber. I will not put failures in my book.
I have hundreds of molds and nothing is on paper, all cast the same and I do not need 725.666* for a mold. To keep a log for each mold is so silly I toss my hands up. I do the same with every mold. Only one I had trouble with was a huge brass mold that needed to be HOTTER.

[cbrick]

My little loading book is as big as your hand with one load for each boolit in each caliber. I will not put failures in my book.

Really? My load notes contain all tested loads. Much can be learned from what didn't work. For one, it keeps me from repeating a failed load over and over. If it seemed worthy of testing today but didn't pan out and I didn't record it next year it would probably seem like a worthy test again, and the next year and. Just not possible to remember everything I've tested. What didn't work well can also give clues at to what to tweak & test any difference, in other words, why didn't it work?

Good notes from failed loads can be as useful as notes from loads that do work well.

The key is keeping "good" notes.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

What group are you speaking of (Distance, total shots fired, type of rest)?
The Ultra Dot is 1x optic, correct?

My group was shot with an Ultra Dot by aiming at a tree branch in the area of 26' over steel. I used the BFR 45-70 revolver.

[robertbank]

Lonegun1894 we were shooting at a flat piece of steel about 18" square. When you hit it you get to hear the ring. Once you get the slight hold over correct it is just a matter of keeping the front sight centered. Fun to do an one of us usually wins a coffee and a donut at the local Tim Horton's. I have to say it is easier than hitting clay pigeons at the same distance but at Abottsford I used my Model 27 with a six inch barrel. I am sure I could hit a clay pigeon at that distance ..but not very often. For me, more luck than skill I am afraid. I remember what Clint Eastwood said in one of his movies. "A man has to know his limitations"

All of the above is with notch and post sights with stock guns. I don't claim to be any more than an average shooter. I am certain everyone who has posted here can do the same thing without to much practice. I will say that I am not capable of shooting anything resembling a group with a handgun at that distance and none of my handguns would be either. 4" at 25 yards is not 2" at 100, 200, 500 or a 1,000 yards. Note I can't shoot 4" groups at 25 yards even from a rest but I can manage an 8" group shooting rather quickly, standing and 2" - 4" groups at 15 yards fairly quickly that is good enough for me.

Take Care

Bob

[cbrick]

Note I can't shoot 4" groups at 25 yards even from a rest. Take Care Bob

Bet ya could! All it would take is first, the desire to do it, some concentration and some practice. Key there is "desire". If it's not something your particularly interested in and didn't really care it would be very tough to do. If ya decided to give it a go and see just what you could do it would probably surprise you.

Rick