high velocity with cast.

[runfiverun]

there is enough interest to open a thread and discuss this openly.
it's NOT about why we CAN'T do it.
it's about what we NEED to do to make it happen, the steps we took to make it happen in our rifles, loads, brass prep, and the expectations we have of our rifles.
what worked and what didn't questions and answers nothing more.


ANY NEGATIVE POSTS OR BICKERING WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE THREAD, WITHOUT EXPLANATION AND THERE WILL BE WARNINGS AND POINTS ISSUED.
READ THE TERMS OF SERVICE AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE IF YOU ARE IN DOUBT.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

let's get after it.

[btroj]

I'm game.

I know lots of stuff that doesn't work. I see this as a long term quest for now. Lots of stuff needs to be looked at.

My issue now is brass quality. Or at least I think it is. I'm seeing runout where I don't want any.

[tomme boy]

How about the expanders that we use. I have always thought that they were helping in one way but hurting in another. Meaning that we need to get a set amount of tension to hold the bullet. So to get that, I use an RCBS neck expander. It works well. But is there a better way to expand the neck and keep it straight at the same time?

I do not like the expanders that come with a FL die or neck die. I usually take them out and use the Neck expanders only. My groups have most certainly improved. I feel it has to be because of more consistent neck tension. I know everyone has different ways to achieve the same thing, but this is something that really seems to help make my ammo more accurate weather it is cast or jacketed.

[geargnasher]

Tomme, I use the RCBS expanders, but you are at the mercy of the alignment of your reloading press because like most dedicated expanders, the body is sort of generic and there's lots of room around the case body/head for things to get really crooked, like if you case isn't in exactly the same place in your shellholder every time, or the ram is sloppy, or the top plate isn't square to the ram. I've also found that I get straighter necks if I screw the spud snugly against the inside top of the die. Another member mentioned the advantage of the Forster Coax press because it lets the case head wiggle a little bit and prevents binding. Bent necks due to tooling problems is one of those areas that DOES matter a great deal when velocity and pressure is pushed up.

What would be the berries is a sliding-sleeve type, cartridge specific, neck expanding die that keeps the spud and case body in perfect alignment while expanding the necks.

Another "works for me" thing is not to size your necks too small to begin with, either hone the neck of a FL die and partial-size (best way I know of to size the necks so they're straight with the body and everything is fully-supported during the resizing process), or use a bushing die system so that the necks are minimally worked. Then you can just "kiss" the neck with the RCBS expander spud and get just enough bell to start the gas check. By "kiss" I mean maybe a thousandth or two at most interference fit between spud and inside of the resized neck.

Gear

[Yodogsandman]

runfiverun, can you define high velocity for the purposes of this thread?

[Bullshop]

Maybe everyone has a different idea of what high velocity is with cast boolits.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to first define what high velocity is.
Perhaps even define degrees of high velocity like #1 high velocity - 18-2100 fps #2 super high velocity 21-2700 fps and #3 mega high velocity 2700- 3000 fps and #4 super mega high velocity 3000-3500 fps and finally #5 light speed.
Its not really an even playing field if we say that anything over 1300 fps is high velocity. I do actually have one load that will fall in the #5 category.

[JeffinNZ]

Bullshop makes a good point. Maybe define high velocity. I have a load for me .223 Rem and my .303 Brit both of which exceed 2300fps with great results. Is that HV though?

I can't help but think this thread will go in one direction however.

[rsrocket1]

Agreed Bullshop,
1800 seems like it's pretty easy, I do it with light plain based cast bullets. I have yet to even try 2000 fps but would like to get up to 26-2700 fps without going to extreme measures or at least see what a reasonable velocity should be. Maybe a post at the top stating what is easily attainable so we can see what we should be striving towards.

[runfiverun]

it's anything beyond normal cast velocity's in your rifle.
in the 30 cal's that would certainly anything above 2200 fps.
if you are approaching jacketed velocity's, your for sure high velocity with cast.

for instance I shoot 2400 fps in my 308's my 30-30's and 358 Winchester.
I shoot 2800 in my AR and in my ruger varmint 223.
my 22-250 and 220 swift both shoot near 2800 also, that is not near jacketed velocity's, but is certainly above 'normal' cast velocity's and takes some work to get them there.

the discussion will center on what to look for in your rifle, and what to do with your brass etc to get there.
I.E.
a 2 sided discussion on just boolit design and alloy manipulation for each one would take up 5 pages alone and they both could be correct.
I have the two different designs in hand right now to try in a rifle, I know one will go fast, I need to figure out how to make the second one do it too....
are the same techniques going to work for it ???
maybe, maybe I need a powder one step slower to duplicate the results.

Dan's numbers work for me.
we need to remember a 180 in a 308 won't get past 2700 no matter what we do.

[geargnasher]

I'll let R5R answer for himself, but I tend to define "High Velocity" as somewhere in between the point where people typically have trouble maintaining their arbitrary and personal accuracy standard (another thing that needs defining???) and full-out jacketed velocity of the cartridge with a given weight bullet. HV, by definition, seems to require a major reworking of either the rifle (slower twist barrel is a big help), and/or a great deal of refinement of one's tools and techniques to get really good accuracy past a certain common point.

Gear

Edit to add Run posted and this is now redundant.

[cbrick]

One thing (of many) I would like to see discussed is annealing. I've played with it & worked to get the process down & I have then Ken Light BC-1000 Annealer that takes much of hassle out. The biggest problem with it as I see it getting a batch of brass all consistent. By consistent I mean every piece of brass annealed the same uniformly all the way around. I never got the process down to where I would trust my match brass after annealing & opted for new brass instead. If the torches aren't set to exactly the identical flame as last time or the angle of the flame isn't exact you have different annealing not only between batches but between individual cases in the same batch.



Obviously annealing works or the factory couldn't make the brass, it's annealed a few times as a normal part of manufacture. I've decided annealing is an art form and takes the right touch.

So my question is: Has anyone here done serious accuracy/grouping with brass they've annealed and what were the results, better, worse, the same?

Rick

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I may not have much to contribute But I am SURE looking forward to following along!

[wmitty]

Are we going to be looking at a specific caliber, or is the full spectrum open for discussion? Am I correct in assuming we're talking gas checked lube grooved boolits?

[RickinTN]

I sure do welcome this thread. I'm working with a few 30 calibers. I'm thinking I need to successfully tackle the 2,200 to 2,400 fps range first then work from there. I do use bushing neck sizers and I'm thinking to size the case as little as possible and have whatever tool used to expand the mouth to gently "kiss" it as mentioned.
Bullet design is where my mind is most of the time right now and I think I'm learning that maybe alloy investigation for me could be a parallel learning curve. Almost like looking for the better mousetrap and bait at the same time.
I'm all ears (eyes) and looking forward to where this goes.
Thanks all,
Rick

[runfiverun]

cb the best way I have found to get around it is to use a temp indicator and time.
once I hit the 700-f temp zone that's all I want, I time how long it takes to get there and use the same amount on each case.
I don't like a dead soft anneal on my cast loads.
I like the case necks to have a couple of sizings done to them after an anneal, you'll feel the difference in the seating die.
I sort my loads according to that feel usually the vast majority have a resistance to them, one or two slip right in, and a couple take some oomph to seat.
the too easy and too tight get pulled into their own group for shooting together.

[detox]

Remington brass is softer than most and more consistant in hardness. I have a new batch of Lapua brass and some cases are harder than others of same batch...even after I anneal them.

Remington is my favorite brass. Butch's has new Remington unprimed 30-06 brass in stock. These can be formed to make other calibers such as the 308, 7mm-08. After forming the necks can be turned to fit tighter to chamber of some loose fitting factory rifles.

The 30-06 has enough case capacity for higher velocities.

Correction: Butch's has Remington 30-06 brass in stock.

[Bullshop]

"""Dan's numbers work for me.
we need to remember a 180 in a 308 won't get past 2700 no matter what we do. """
I was not trying to set the bar with the numbers I posted but just only using them as an example to make my point.
I guess if we are calibrating a bar to determine what high velocity is and for the sake of discussion there would also have to be a few caliber groups such as small - 22 to 25 medium 26 to 35 and large 36 to 50.

[RED333]

Gona be reading and watching, so I am thinking of using my lead to anneal, I can control the temp,
control the time and control the temp of the water to cool them or air cool, ideas?

[runfiverun]

either way,, they seemed good to me.
you do run into degrees of difficulty along the way.
airc it was Felix that told me it was about every 250-300 fps.
21-24-2700 seemed to each hold an accuracy node.
as you found each one you found accuracy again about that much higher and had to work harder and harder on narrowing down the details to move to the next one.

[btroj]

Rick, I wonder the same thing. I figure a couple of firings will even them out a bit.

OK Run, you sort somewhat by effort to seat a bullet. How does that work when trying different loads?