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Thread: high velocity with cast.

  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Heat treated boolits: Question is do they work soften when shot? Drop test to measure nose deformation. Compared with AC alloy. Dropped aged AC & HT rifle boolits (3% Sb, tad of Cu) nose down from ~8' onto concrete floor. Inspected with 20X loope. Eyeball inspection shows HT had ~ 20% smaller 'dent' on the FP edge (butt heavy so they want to swap ends). The 'edge' of the dent on both has a frayed look so I assume some 'surface' harness but the 'dent' was large enough (~0.2 at the largest) to assume the hardening is more than surface deep. Impact does work soften the boolit but results are acceptable and consistent. I assume this alloy goes from ~15 to ~25 BHN when HTd (Cbrick data), 60% increase, does the BHN tester give anything more than surface hardness?
    Interesting post. Yes, from the metals industry lead does harden all the way through and not a surface hardening like steel alloys. Does the BHN tester measure only surface hardness? I can't answer that other than to say the metals industry uses similar testing though of course with far more precise (and expensive) test equipment. Do bullets work soften when fired? Another good question, I would assume so but given the millisecond the bullet is in the bore would work softening effect anything? Dunno, don't know how one could test that but it is an interesting mind teaser to think about it.

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  2. #342
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    I believe lead alloys do work soften when fired.
    The larger the boolit being forced into the bore the more it work softens.
    I wrote up a whole explanation on antimony/tin alloys versus antimony only alloys
    in a thread a bit back in another HV thread.
    But it works the same way swaging lead cores and forming does in the bullet swaging process.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    I believe lead alloys do work soften when fired.
    The larger the boolit being forced into the bore the more it work softens.
    I wrote up a whole explanation on antimony/tin alloys versus antimony only alloys
    in a thread a bit back in another HV thread.
    But it works the same way swaging lead cores and forming does in the bullet swaging process.
    Sort of related, was talking about how the lead in the jacketed bullets in my range scrap seem harder than pure lead, BHN of 7 or 8 based on tests of ingots. I got some comments that lead in jacketed pistol bullets was soft like pure. I was determined to find out. I took a .45 FMJ and pounded it into a cube like shape cracking the jacket so it pulled off. I took that little lead cube and tested with my Lee tester and it tested at BHN of 8. I would think that my pounding it should have made it softer, right?

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  4. #344
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    I guess that an already soft alloy can't get any softer. Just was thinking about what I just posted. But since that bit of alloy was already BHN of 8 it must have some antimony in it or tin. I wonder if it would heat treat. If I heat it until it starts to slump and then I quench it, it might get harder?

    Tim
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  5. #345
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    Tim, my range scrap runs 11 to 12 when air cooled but with heat treat it can push 24.

    I Would be interested to know what heat treating does to that core. I bet it isn't pure and this is a sure fire way to know.
    You will learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you ever will at a computer bench.

  6. #346
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    Antimony allows the lead to flow easier under pressure it's tin that resists pressure and flexing.
    you know thAt popping sound you hear when you bend tin?
    thAts it breaking apart.
    Antimony crystals break down but allow the lead to slide and move
    it's similar to adding lead to brass or steel

  7. #347
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    At what point is there too much antimony?

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomme boy View Post
    At what point is there too much antimony?
    More than 8% or so. The alloy will become so brittle that it could fracture on chambering.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgetful View Post
    More than 8% or so. The alloy will become so brittle that it could fracture on chambering.
    8% won't do that. People shoot lino at 12% all the time. Stereo Type and Monotype certainly break easily enough. I think how much Sb is good or bad for the HV testing remains to be seen. Bjornb has been blending several alloys from Roto Super Hard, don't think he as shot them as yet, hasn't posted the results yet anyway.

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  10. #350
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    When pushing the envelope
    you have to think and think some more I try to breAk down the whole
    sequence of events in my head.
    i use a different alloy and technique in my 30 cal rifles than I use in my 223 cal rifles
    the alloy you use can affect the outcome but thinking the process through based on the design of the boolit entering the barrel and timing it with your powders peak pressure will give you an insight as to what alloy to try first.
    You may have to play with the alloy a tick to get the critical diameters just right but it will be close enough to get you started in the right direction.

  11. #351
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    ooo eee, I just went through nearly 1,000 pages of HV threads. I am gonna start high (higher) velocity testing with my XP 15" 308. Why a 15 inch barrel? Because I have it and want to know just what it will do. It'll wear a Burris 10X EER scope. I have no accuracy standard to compare to, building this gun was finished not long before I started looking for property out of state, buying a house, moving etc so it's basically a clean slate, dunno what it will do.

    Gonna take a lead from Detox and start with V-140 (cause I have it), right at the burn rate of Varget. I've ordered the XCB mold from Al, should have that by weeks end. I'll start with Fed 210's. If I remember Gear's post correctly (1000 pages) he had better success seating just off the lands with this bullet. I'll do my normal brass work, uniform primer pockets, flash holes, check concentricity/runout but I'll not turn necks at first, I had the chamber cut to a mild snug fit with a bullet in factory necks. Currently in the lead pot is CWW+ 2% Sn, I'll start with that cause it's in the pot but I have alloys aplenty to blend a wide range of variations. I will probably start with oven HT to 18 BHN. The test results from Bjornb's alloy experiments would be valuable here.

    If anyone would like to chime in with tips, ideas, experiences I'm all ears.

    I shall see, may not even hit the target or it may surprise me. Dunno but I do know how to find out and if I'm gonna test HV I've little choice but to start someplace.

    Rick
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  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrick View Post
    8% won't do that.
    Of course not. But I see more than 8% as a waste, answering his question about what is too much. Eventually, around 30% to 40%, it will fracture on chambering if it's trying to swage at all. Also, the less Pb you have, the worse BC you'll get. Try to keep lead content above 90%, no?

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrick View Post
    snip...
    If anyone would like to chime in with tips, ideas, experiences I'm all ears.

    I shall see, may not even hit the target or it may surprise me. Dunno but I do know how to find out and if I'm gonna test HV I've little choice but to start someplace.
    Rick
    Since I have dipped my toe in the HV water, but otherwise am a newbie to it,
    I'll through out a couple obvious things.

    Since, as you say, "my XP 15" 308... basically a clean slate", I also started with a Clean slate gun, a nearly unfired winchester Mod 70. It was suggested to me, to break in the barrel with some J-words, then clean any copper out thoroughly.

    Also, be sure to load some LV loads, around 1600 to 1800 fps to test out. If they shoot good and your first attempts don't shoot HV very well, it'll narrow the search.
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  14. #354
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    Didn't mean to imply the barrel is a virgin, there are a few hundred rounds through it but no real grouping. It's mostly been fed so far the same load that my 308 rifle shoots pretty well. In the rifle that's 19.0 gr SR 4749, RCBS 180 SP at 1900 fps. I've also run several 4759 loads over the chrono with bullets from RCBS 150 FP to NOE 200 gr 311365. The only thing I've learned from the notes is that 21 gr didn't shoot 200 gr well and I didn't have the chrono that day and of course as no surprise that 4759 is way too fast for anything above 1950-2000 fps (rifle or XP).

    Haven't bought one of them ugly brown jacketed things in 30 years so can't do that. The barrel is a Shilen Stainless match grade that would probably feel insulted by them ugly brown bullets.

    Could be a handicap with a 15" barrel with muzzle pressure & slow powder. Could be a benefit with a 15" barrel and barrel vibration with less barrel to vibrate. Either way I'll see what it does. Just came in from the loading room and it seems I have some shooting to do before I can even prep brass, that brass for that gun is already loaded with the mentioned rifle load.

    Rick
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  15. #355
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    To keep it simple I always use strait linotype alloy (22bhn) in my 308 rifles. I have tried water quenching softer #2, but accuracy was not as good at the higher pressures required for higher velocity.

  16. #356
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    I didn't know that Gear owned the XCB bullet from NOE. I do know he has a 190X from Accurate that has a similar fit set up with the throat.

    Rick, how is the muzzle blast with the 15 in 308? It shouldn't be too bad until pressure get up there. My 309 JDJ Contender can be fierce once pressure and powder change rise.

    I am jealous of you guys in warmer climes, I had 30 degrees and 20 plus mph winds today. Not very group friendly.
    You will learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you ever will at a computer bench.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by detox View Post
    To keep it simple I always use strait linotype alloy (22bhn) in my 308 rifles. I have tried water quenching softer #2, but accuracy was not as good at the higher pressures required for higher velocity.
    If I used all of my lino right down to the last drop (melted of course ) I could maybe get 40-50 bullets. It got way to hard to find and I gave up looking for it years ago. Couldn't use it on steel anyway . . .

    Rick
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  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    I didn't know that Gear owned the XCB bullet from NOE. I do know he has a 190X from Accurate that has a similar fit set up with the throat.

    Rick, how is the muzzle blast with the 15 in 308? It shouldn't be too bad until pressure get up there. My 309 JDJ Contender can be fierce once pressure and powder change rise.

    I am jealous of you guys in warmer climes, I had 30 degrees and 20 plus mph winds today. Not very group friendly.
    I have no idea if Gear has the NOE XCB.

    No real problem with muzzle blast with the loads it's seen so far. I shot a 270 JDJ for quite some time and while those loads were fairly stout I did all I could to avoid standing in front of it so the muzzle blast wasn't bad (for me ).

    Yep, I told you in another thread that you'll have to take my word for it, a warmer climate and retired are both wonderful.

    Rick
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  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrick View Post
    If I used all of my lino right down to the last drop (melted of course ) I could maybe get 40-50 bullets. It got way to hard to find and I gave up looking for it years ago. Couldn't use it on steel anyway . . .

    Rick
    Rotometals has a secret 12% off Thanksgiving sale going on now until November 30. Use the coupon code....stuffing...at checkout. Their linotype is goodstuff.
    Last edited by detox; 11-26-2014 at 10:29 PM.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by detox View Post
    Rotometals has a secret 12% off Thanksgiving sale going on now until November 30. Use the coupon code....stuffing...at checkout. Their linotype is goodstuff.
    I'm gonna start this with what I have on hand and that's quite a bit actually. I'll start with HT CWW, I've got around 500 pounds. In addition I have about 500 pounds of SWW, 30 pounds of bar tin and around 20 pounds of Roto Super Hard so I can blend up whatever I may need to try out including a lino equivalent. Some of the HV testing so far has indicated a lower Sb and Sn percentage HT so I shall see where it goes.

    Rick
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check