Do you shoot gas check bullets?

[Prs61109]

This question reveal's my inexperience in BP. I'm about to order a 405 grain bullet mold for my 45/70. Since I already have a number of RCBS molds and handle, I'm considering their mold which is a gas check design. Wouldn't a gas check provide a perfect bullet base, assuming it is seated square? I realize this is an additional expense. If a gas check is used, does it eliminate the need for a wad under the bullet? Can a GC bullet be used successfully without a gas check and with a wad?

I need the benefit of your experience. Thanks!

[MT Chambers]

I would not use a gas check design with BP as it might not allow the base to obturate (bump up) on ignition. I would not use a gc mold and then not use the GC, I would get a pb mold.

[13Echo]

If you are going to shoot it in a Trapdoor or similar antique then no gas check and get a mould that will cast a bullet about 0.460" out of a soft alloy. If it is a modern rifle than a bullet of about 0.458" should work fine even with a check. My favorite full power .45-70 load is 70grs ffg compressed with one card and one wax paper wad and the SAECO 881 500 gr bullet with a proper black powder lube. Compress the powder charge to allow seating the bullet to cover the grease grooves. If shooting in a Springfield apply a moderate crimp. In a modern rifle I don't use a crimp. For a 405 gr load I've been shooting the Lee hollow base bullet over 59grs of powder and seat the bullet to allow a firm crimp over the base of the ogive. Gives a nice pleasant carbine load.

Jerry Liles

[upnorthwis]

If you're going to shoot in any BPCR competition, gas checks are not allowed. May as well start out the right way with a PB.

[country gent]

I can see several "issues" using a gas check with black powder loads that could be problems. 1) is getting the bullet to obtrate or slug up with the harder copper check on the base. Annealing them before installing might help with this. 2) is the gas checks are going to be .458 dia meaning obtration is going to be more imp[ortant to get the bullet base to seal, 3) On the older original barrels the copper check is going to be harder on the rifling. What are your goals for this rifle / caliber plinking, formal competition, or hunting? Most of these rifle with Black Powder perform with softer alloys of 20-1 or so. If worried about leading another way to go that can be accurate is a smooth sided bullet with a paper patch wrapped on it. You can try it but Im not sure it will be a benifit.

[.22-10-45]

Gas checks do not always provide a perfect base! I have found most .22 caliber checks to be wavy across bottom. Annealing & using custom press mounted punch helps but still not perfect. If a perfect flat base is what your after on your .45 cast bullets...you can do no better than what the old master H.M. Pope suggested..order a nose-pour mould..bases are glass smooth.

[Prs61109]

Thank you for your advice. I'll scrap the the RCBS 405 GC bullet idea. How does the Lyman 405 (457193) shoot for targets? Who makes the nose-pour molds?

[Hiwall55]

I Would go with the RCBS 530 RN very good B P bullet.

[country gent]

First to make a reasonable choice for the bullet and mould you need to know several things about the rifles chamber and barrel. 1) throat dia and length, 2) Leade into rifling, 3) bore and groove dia. A vamber cast with cerrosafe will allow the first 2 to be measured fairly accuratly, Slygging the bore gives the last. A short bullet in a rifle with a long throat may never reach the rifling always having to "jump" to get there. A bore rideing nose thats 2 small dosnt always do what its supossed to, and a bore rider nose 2 big can be hard to load. I would look at several bullet styles and see whats is going to fit with your set-up. One that is almost always a good performer is lyman 457125 the old 520 grn round nose goverment bullet, when everything fits correctly its a solid performer for about any use. I have had good results with the Lyman 535 grn postell also when fitted to the barrel. SOme really like the 645 I cant remember the maker now. Nose pour moulds are available from Hoch as a prodution made mold but most nose pour moulds are a custom or semi custom mold maker. I have a Brooks that casts a beautifull PP bullet and is adjustable for wieght/length. I converted my Lyman Postell mould to a nose pour myself and it does cast a very accurate bullet. Accurate, Brooks, And several otheres make nose pour molds. The big plus to a custom maker is you can get exactly the bullet and dias you want ( or very very close to it) send them the chamber cast of throat and barrel slug of bore groove dias and the alloy you will be using You will get just what you want.

[Prs61109]

Good advice and recommendations... I appreciate your education of this old "newbie." A custom mould would be wonderful but at my stage in BP shooting, I have to "learn to walk before I can run." I will certainly file this information for further reference in the future. There may also be some lurkers here that will also benefit from this thread so we all benefit.

[country gent]

I ll bet you can find a "standard" mould from lymann, RCBS, Accurate, or Lee that will shoot very well and get you started out nicely. A true custom mould is nice and takes alot of question out of your mind but still about the same load development to do. As to nose pour or base pour what works works. The nose pours sprue is on the nose where it probably dosnt matter as much. But on a properly adjusted base pour the sprue is barely there to be seen or felt. I do believe the nose pour produces a flatter slightly squarer base but I have never proved its enough to really matter. My Lyman Postell started live as a base pour and I cast a couple 1000 of them ahead before I converted it to nose pour so same basic bullet from same mould only diffrence is where the sprue cut is, accuracy between the 2 is almost identical for practical purposes. Be more concerned with finding a suitable load and alot of trigger time learning how the rifle load perform and when you decide you need more is the time to look for improvements.

[Forgetful]

I was informed, when I purchased a custom mold, of a few things.. #1, when you order the custom mold, ask as many questions as you can about the right one for your needs, because the mold maker knows what he's talking about. This was my experience, anyway, dealing with LBT. Very highly recommended!!! #2, accept his experience and heed his advice.

GC molds are usually base-pour. Nose-pour is recommended for all others because the base steers the bullet.

[Gunlaker]

Saeco moulds are a great choice for an off the shelf mould.

Chris.

[EDG]

Sagebrush and a few other sell a variety of bullets that you can sample.
They can be expensive but less expensive than buying molds that don't work.

http://www.cheycast.com/catalog.htm

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/BB_45_caliber.html

http://www.westernbullet.com/castbullets.html

In general stay away from hard cast bullets

http://www.pennbullets.com/4570/4570-caliber.html

Good advice and recommendations... I appreciate your education of this old "newbie." A custom mould would be wonderful but at my stage in BP shooting, I have to "learn to walk before I can run." I will certainly file this information for further reference in the future. There may also be some lurkers here that will also benefit from this thread so we all benefit.

[dlbarr]

Thank you for your advice. I'll scrap the the RCBS 405 GC bullet idea. How does the Lyman 405 (457193) shoot for targets? Who makes the nose-pour molds?

I have the 457193 and shoot it over 70gr 2fg Goex with a milk carton disc in between powder & lead. It shoots fine at hunting ranges but I've never shot it at 200+ yds so I couldn't say about formal BPCR. I rather suspect you'd be better off with something heavier like a 500gr boolit. Don't get me wrong, the 457193 is certainly a fine one, just probably not for long-range competition.

[Larry Gibson]

First, PB'd bullets work as good with BP and are legal in BP matches if that is a consideration. Thus no real need for the added expense of the GC.

Second, GC'd cast bullets shoot just as well with BP as PB'd bullets do. I have shot a lot of GC'd Lee 500 gr (457-500-FN) and Lyman 400 gr (457483) cast of 20-1. They both are about .001 - .0015" under the groove diameter of my target TD (.461). I sized and lubed in a .4615 H&I which only seats the GC and lubes them. Loaded over 70 gr Goex Cartridge or a duplex load of 7 gr 4759/52 gr Cartridge they shot just as well as similar PB'd cast bullets (Rapine 460500 & Lyman 457124). Recovered bullets (after snow melt down range) showed the GC'd bullets did "bump up". In my

I noted that the GC'd bullets shot "just as well" as the PB'ed GC'd bullets in the original TD with the .461 barrel. In my H&R TDs with .458 groove barrels no "bump up" is needed. The GC bullets actually shoot more accurately over a 20 shot string than PB'd bullets with the pure BP load. The reason is the GC does keep the fouling to a minimum. It appears the only BP fouling left in the barrel is from the last shot. The GCs appear to scrape the previous shots fouling out and the BP fouling buildup does not happen nearly as much with the GC'd bullets.

Since my BP loads are mostly the duplex load which eliminates the fouling problem anyway I seldom use the GC'd bullets. However, if I was using pure BP loads and not entering any matches I would use the GC'd bullets as they eliminate most of the fouling issues. Most of my shooting with my TDs is keeping the hostiles (rocks, termite and ant hills and assorted other inanimate targets) at bay on my forays into the desert and high countries of the West. The duplex loads or GC'd loads suit me then as I don't have to put up with the fouling issue when firing upwards of 50 or more shots during a foray.

But again, when I used to shoot matches with my target TD I used the PB'd Rapine 460500, cast of 16-1, sized at .4615 and loaded over pure Goex Cartridge. A blow tube and wiping the bore between strings (usually 10 shots) was necessary back then.

Larry Gibson

[McLintock]

My experience with gas checks and BP were with a 38-55 in a Winchester 94, for Long Range Cowboy Action shooting. It outshot any smokeless load I tried, and I had some really good ones worked up for a Browning 1885 Single Shot, so just stuck with the BP loads. Always was shooting against competitors using smokeless loads in all sorts of rifle/load combo's and won many a match. Biggest problem was seeing the target due to smoke, as I was normally shooting ten shots in less than 45 seconds and needed a little breeze for target acquisition. Was going to try it in a Browning 45-70 levergun, got a 405 gr mold and the checks, but quit shooting shortly thereafter due to back and foot problems. Had won the U.S. Championships of CAS with that rifle, so was particularly interested in seeing how it would shoot with the combo, as it was extremely accurate with my smokeless load. Never tried it in my BPCR rifles but might in my 38-55 someday, although I know it can't be used in competition.
McLintock