44/40 loading

[w30wcf]

Bore slugged at .428, boolit sized at .429. They are from a Lyman mold (lent to me by a club member as they are too small for his barrel!) but look more like the Big Lube, but with a smaller grease groove.

Is it the middle bullet?


w30wcf

[w30wcf]

BCRider, I've found loading to be a lot of fun, and quite therapeutic, but getting it right proved far more complex than I expected (amazing what difference a couple of thou can make!!). I found the setting of the crimper/seating die is fairly touchy, and suggest you make up a couple of dummy loads first, to make sure they'll chamber/feed properly.

I'm now in the process of making a tumbler so that I can clean the brass (I did a few by hand, not a very practical proposition).

Oh, and if you're using BP throw the spent cases into a container of water as soon as you can, it makes them easier to clean and reduces any risk of corrosion.

It is important that, when using a standard seat crimp die, that the brass is the same length. The easy way to set the die properly is to
1.) Back the die out and place an empty case into the shell holder and run it to the top position.
2.) Turn the die down until you feel it touch the top of the case and then back it off 1/2 turn.
3.) Back out the seating stem several turns.
4.) Remove the case and place a charged case / bullet to be seated into the shell holder.
5.) Run the case / bullet up into the die and adjust the seating stem until the bullet is seated to the proper location.
6.) Back off the seating stem and adjust the die down until the proper crimp is reached.
7.) With the cartridge in the crimp position, adjust the seating stem down to contact the bullet.
Your die is now adjusted properly to seat & crimp in one operation.

Due to certain bullet crimp groove types it sometimes is better to seat the bullet in one operation and then crimp in another.

CLEANING BRASS after firing b.p. -
I have not found it necessary to place the cases into water (or water / soap solution) immediately after firing since I have found that also makes the brass dirty on the outside. Rather I wait sometimes up to a day or 2 and then stand the cases in a shallow container that is higher than the cases. I then pour a 50/50 white vinegar / water solution over the cases and to a level slightly over the top. After the solution nullifies the fouling (a few minutes) I dump the solution and rinse the cases well with warm water and set them aside to dry.

There are other ways of doing it but that is what works for me.

w30wcf

[dikman]

Because I only shoot at a range, it's no big deal for me to have a container of water handy at the bench, but I might give the vinegar/water thing a try too (anything to make cleaning easier!). Thanks for that.

Just had a thought - I wonder how the vinegar/water would work in a tumbler? The agitation should clean a bit better, maybe? Might have to give it a try.

[doc1876]

Doc,
The most likely cause....if the seating die neck dimension is correct...is that the bullet is bigger than the neck will allow. I have RCBS dies and the seating die works as it should with up to .431" diameter bullets. Larger than that and I have to back the die out just like you indicated.

W30wcf

Yes, I have experienced this. I clean the expander often, and do check for depth, still every now and then one crushes.
The .44 sp expander did me no good, btw

[dikman]

W30wcf, missed the photo before (dumb!) yep, that's the one, I just checked the mold number.

[w30wcf]

dikman,
I have shot that bullet a bit with Goex and like powders and found that the barrel fouls out fairly quickly since the bullet does not carry an adequate amount of lube for the trip down the barrel.

However, with Swiss b.p. it runs fine for multiple shots since Swiss burns with a moist fouling whereas the others do not. Olde Enysford would likely do well also.

You could use a duplex load to keep the fouling in control. I have used 4 grs of 4227 under 30 grs of Goex in the .44-40 and that seemed to work well.....plenty of smoke....

w30wcf

[robg]

i used lee dies lubed inside the necks large pistol primers & crimped gently. satisfying round to load ,touching history.

[dikman]

We don't have the selection of powders available here that you have. Swiss is difficult to get and horribly expensive, so very few use it except in matches. A club member mentioned that another club uses 1f in their levers, so I sieved some 2f to remove the fine stuff and tried that. It shot well enough, and although I still had fouling it didn't seem quite as bad. I've also just made up another batch using a stiffer lube, so I'll give that a try today.

At least I've got my press and dies sorted, and it's all loading consistently.

[dikman]

I've decided to use smokeless powder due to the fouling issue, but that of course creates even more problems - finding a suitable powder! We have a locally made powder which is considered eminently suitable for these cartridges - but no-one has any! Trailboss is also recommended - but no-one has any! One shop has some Blue Dot, but doing some research has come up with conflicting statements on whether it is suitable for this cartridge.

Would any of you more experienced chaps care to enlighten me about Blue Dot, please?

[Outpost75]

I would not use Blue Dot in .44-40. Unique, Herco, PB, sure, but Blue Dot is trouble!

Any 12-ga. shotgun powder suitable for 3 drams equivalent, 1-1/8 oz. trap and skeet or light field loads would also be suitable. Red Dot, Green Dot, 700X, WST, etc.

7.5 grains of Red Dot is a full charge 1300 fps load with 200-grain lead bullet for the Winchester 92. Don't exceed 6.5 grains in Colt revolvers or the '73 Winchester.

[dikman]

Thanks for that, Outpost. Many of the powders you chaps talk about aren't available here so my options are pretty limited (particularly as any powder appears to be in short supply at the moment). I think I'll give the Blue Dot a miss. TrailBoss is supposed to be available in a week or so, guess I'll hang out for that.

[dikman]

Finally found a place that had some TrailBoss, so went for a ride to get it. Being used to BP, I found that this is very weird looking stuff indeed, and my powder thrower doesn't like it at all! Looks like I'll have to make a dipper for it.

[Outpost75]

Thanks for that, Outpost. Many of the powders you chaps talk about aren't available here so my options are pretty limited (particularly as any powder appears to be in short supply at the moment). I think I'll give the Blue Dot a miss. TrailBoss is supposed to be available in a week or so, guess I'll hang out for that.

I don't know how popular shotgun reloading is down your way, but my friend in Italy searches among the readily available and popular shotgun powders there for light field and target loads in 12-gage, then compares the 12-ga. load data with published data for similar US powders, such as Red Dot, 700-X or WST, which are also used here for handgun loads. His usual COwboy load formula is to find a powder which in shotgun loads performs similarly to Red Dot, and then he substitutes the available powder, firing in a strong gun (Ruger), working up loads over a chronograph.

He has found with most 12-ga. target load powders you can start with the suggested "starting" load for Bullseye and not get into any trouble, the bullet will exit the barrel reliably, and if you can snag a velocity reading, it is simple to adjust the charge. He works up a powder charge in cowboy calibers which gives 250+/- 10 m/s in the revolver and lets the velocity go where ever it does in the rifle. Working the other way, rifle loads should not exceed about 400 m/s in a 24" barrel with plainbased bullets.

He shoots only Ruger revolvers and Marlin or modern Winchester '92 clone rifles which have strong actions, having blown up a Uberti 1873 clone by this method previously. Similarly, I use a Ruger New Model Blackhawk and Marlin 1894S to work up my .44-40 loads and I don't believe in using anything but strong modern guns with smokeless. I sold off my black powder only guns to collectors years ago.

I never cared for powders of large particle size which are unsuited for machine loading. Over the years I have used more Bullseye than all other pistol or shotgun powders combined. It also works well when cautiously used in gallery rifle loads, taking precautions against double or multiple charges. Long ago I developed my Bullseye rifle loads when I worked in the industry and had access to pressure test equipment, choosing loads in which an inadvertent double charge would not blow up a gun.

[w30wcf]

Actually.........I have used Blue Dot in the 44-40 with very good results.....BUT ONLY if the powder is positioned to the back of the case. Otherwise, to Outpost 75's point, wide velocity variations will be the result.

Older Hercules Data showed 12 grs of BD under a 200 gr. bullet giving 1,225 fps.

I probably burned close to a lb. of it in my original '73 .44 WCF.

w30wcf

[dikman]

Thanks for the replies guys.
The most common (and usually available) powders are made here in Oz by ADI, and they generally make equivalents to the various other overseas powders (they also make the Trailboss, under licence). The problem is that the one that is recommended for 44-40 use (AP70N) hasn't been available for some time due to a "problem" at their plant (I think something went boom). Trying to get any of the other brands is somewhat problematical at the moment - meaning there's none available! So I jumped at the Trailboss, as beggars can't be choosers, as they say.

w30wcf, yes, I'd picked up on that potential problem with using any loads that don't fill the case, particularly when a very small amount of powder is used (some powders appear to be worse than others). Some use fillers to hold the powder against the rear of the case, but I'm not interested in doing that.

By the time I've used up this stuff the AP70 should be available, in which case I'll start using that - cheaper to buy and should go through the thrower ok!.

[dikman]

Shot the Trailboss today and I'm very happy with it (no fouling!). I used 5.5 gns, but after I'd loaded 50 cartridges it occurred to me to check the weight of the boolits - 212 gns. Hmm, I thought they were 200 gns, so it looks like I need to increase the load slightly, probably try 6.5 gns.

Sure is fun shooting a lever, think I may need another one .

[w30wcf]

Glad to see that you have had success with Trailboss. My same mold drops 212 gr. bullets in w.w. alloy. Why Lyman calls it a 200 gr is a bit of a mystery. The same is true of the RCBS 200. It goes 214 grs.

6.5 / Trailboss is one of my favorite Cowboy type (1000 f.p.s.) loads in the .44-40. The other is 6.2 grs / Titegroup.



w30wcf