Starting swaging - ???s

[wyrmzr]

OK, I've been looking through the forums trying to glean what information I can to get started swaging (or whether or not it's really necessary or feasible).
A lot of what I'm seeing is kind of all over the place, and even some of the videos seem to just add to my confusion (not that I'm not easily confused anyway).
So, what are the advantages of swaging, and what kinds of equipment do I need to start?
I've seen various recommendations on whether one can use a reloading press to swage with, and/or whether certain ones will stand up to the pressures involved. Assuming I start swaging any time soon, I'd likely start with .223 boolits.
Cost of the tools is looking like it could be a hefty investment if you can't make your own tools, or at least repurpose other tools for the job.

[R.Ph. 380]

I've been using BTsniper's .223 swaging dies for my 22lr to .224 for about 6 months now and not only are the resulting rounds accurate as OEM bullets, the satisfaction of not being tied down to the whims of the manufacturers or any Obama contrived shortages is undeniable. I have used a RCBS Rockchucker Supreme reloading press for my .224 rounds and have had great success with it. If that was all I was going to do that is what I would stay with.

Recently I received BT'sd 45 acp from 40S&W dies and also spent a bit of money and ordered a Swaging press from UPNorth(Tim Rahko in Michigan) to do the 45 and soon my 30 caliber dies. If you want to stay limited to the .224 then the Lee Classic Cast that Brian (BTSniper) uses or the RC Supreme that several of us new swagers use, you would be fine. Only when you get into the higher calibers are you going to run into problems and need a stronger press, like one from the Corbins or UPNorth.

Regardless of your choices, it's not a cost savings move into swaging, but is a move away from reliance on the whims of the economy or the people's irrational hoplophobia and the resultant shortages we have seen since 2008.

AS BTSniper says: "Step Up To The Press, and Swage On"


Bill

[Smokin7mm]

Cost savings wise all depends on what you are using for jackets rimfire jackets or cartridge cases for jackets and if you can aquire the lead or have to buy it. I used to use alot of berger jackets but their price is through the roof running almost 30.00-35.00 per hundred jackets. RCE is offering some pretty nice commercial jackets at very reasonalble prices. Yes the origional equipment is expensive. I started swaging 14-15 years ago. All my equipment is RCE and I have purchased different dies over the years and currently do 22, 6mm, 6.5mm, 270, 7mm. The first sets of dies I bought were around 300.00 ish for one caliber today they run closer to 600.00 ish. The nice thing is that if I need more bullets I just make them and dont have to deal with bullet shortages like everyone went through these past few years.

Bret

[Theditchman]

Make sure you get references if you buy anything that requires money up front and ask around how long people have waited for stuff they have bought

[Lizard333]

BT is not a bad choice. I now have three sets of his dies and a couple of sets of RCE's dies. Both very high quality. My two cents.....

Order the dies. Then, while your waiting, and waiting, and waiting some more, buy a SWAGING press. Yes, you can swage in a reloading press, but why?? Take your time, save your money, buy once, cry once. You will have plenty of time to save. Did I mention the waiting part

This is not an impatient mans hobby.

[wyrmzr]

One of my primary reasons for wanting to swage .223 first is the simple fact that the old 500+ bulk boxes have become difficult to find; not impossible, but I'm just thinking this may be a sign of things to come. Combine that with the fact that the bulk boxes have gone up so much in price, and I'm thinking swaged may be the way to go, or it may at least be a good time to prepare to do so.
I'm less concerned with swaging for larger calibers only because, so far, I'm having no issues with accuracy in cast for 30 cal on up. .223 seems to be quite a bit more finicky, and I'm hoping the swaging process will help make an accurate bullet easier than just casting. Does anyone have experience as far as that goes?
I actually have a Bator mold on order right now, and am curious as to what I can get for results with just straight casting, but if what I've seen so far is correct, the consensus seems to be that swaging for rounds that small seems to make a difference in accuracy.
To be totally honest, I'm not even totally sure what the swaging process involves; is this effectively "forming" a bullet through pressure, and is it done with previously cast bullets? Does it make the bullet harder, or does it make it more uniform?
I'm reading up on this, almost while I type, but some of the information just doesn't seem all that straight forward. Lots of people talking about HOW to swage, a lot of different methods, but the why is what intrigues me.
If I'm not going to get a more accurate bullet, then I will keep casting for now, and take my time acquiring the components to start swaging. If swaging can make huge improvements in accuracy, uniformity of bullets, or other areas, then I'd think the best time to start is now, before everyone else starts doing it, and the parts suddenly become more rare or expensive.

[Lizard333]

Here's my "why". I swage because I can produce a better swaged jacketed bullet than I can buy in the store. Next, I can make as many swaged bullets as I want, without hysteria or hype or Uncle Sam telling me what I can or cannot do.

Taking a spent 22LR case and turning it into a projectile that is absolutely LEATHAL on the local prairie dog population brings me great satisfaction. Not many things compare to that.

[wyrmzr]

OK, next question: The swaging die sets I'm seeing are really expensive; who's used what brands, and/or can I make my own swaging dies for the .223? I'd hate to spend a fortune, only to find out it's not something I'm going to use often.
I also have to add that the people who make the videos on swaging are REALLY boring...

[Bullshop]

If you would like to try some swaged bullets I am selling them at $13.50 per 100 plus shipping. Shipping is $6.00 and I can fit 1000 in a box for the $6.00 shipping.
Right now my dies are set to make a 70gn soft point rebated boat tail. When I get ahead of orders by 10 to 15,000 I can switch to a different weight.
These bullets are using 22 RF spent cases for jackets. Right now commercial jackets cost about the same as the cheapest bulk bullets you can find, something close to $.10 each. Using 22 rf cases for jackets is very much more economical and makes a very good bullet.
Just pm me if you are interested in trying some of these bullets.

[Cane_man]

large barrier to entry $$$, advantage is that you are not subject to market shortages

yes, you can make your own swaging dies... several threads here to give insight on how to do it... not for the meek!

[Lizard333]

Is there any one in your area you can go over to and watch the process? I had a lot of questions like yourself. I met up with a fellow swager, and after a 10 hour day, and spending several thousand on presses and dies, I'm hooked.

[Sasquatch-1]

You asked about time. Time is the other big investment in swaging. Unless you buy lead wire or are able to extrude it you will have to start by casting a core. If you are using 22 cases as your jackets they have to be annealed. I only swage jacketed bullets for 44 cal. and for those annealing is several hours with a torch and a bucket of water. If you are swaging 22 cal. bullets you have to anneal the cases (there have been several ways to do this in bulk discussed on the forum)and then I believe you have to derim the case. All this and you still don't have your first bullet.

After you have done all of the above you then have to 1: form the core, 2: seat the core, 3: form the point 4: clean the bullets and 5: load the bullets. Depending on how consistent you want the bullets to be you may need to weigh ALL the components before and after.

This being said, it can be very rewarding to show off your home made projectiles at the range.

Oh yeah, +1 on the purpose built swaging press. Makes the job a lot easier.

[wyrmzr]

Well, it sounds like I'll be starting out slowly; I may have some friends who can make me swaging dies, but I'll have to do more homework on what exactly I need as far as a complete set would go. Work lately has been slow, so not much $$$ to spend on extra items.
I'm going to try and cast some .223 before I start swaging anyway; mold is on its way, but I will likely require gas checks as well. Perhaps time to order some homemade GCs, and/or start making my own GCs.

[runfiverun]

depending on your expectations with the 223, casting them is not going to be a plug and play option either.
the 223 is very finicky with cast boolits.
yeah you can cast and shoot them.
but at very reduced velocity's and with so-so results on the target.

my most accurate bullets in the 223 come from J-4 jackets and weight sorted cores.
the AR's will shoot 22 lr jackets pretty well, but at slightly slower velocity's than the thicker bullet jackets.
not a problem unless you want velocity [shrug] or that extra accuracy.

to get cast to shoot well you need to have a boolit that fit's your throat [heard that before ?]
you also have to visually sort ruthlessly, and then weight sort.
load work-up is going to depend a lot on what rifle you use, I use imr-4895 in the AR's, but use a slower load of 2400 for the bolt guns if we are just going shooting.

as far as using a regular reloading press to swage with it's certainly do-able.
I would recommend you have a threaded ram made and use threaded punches, it's a lot easier on them and doesn't ruin the ram.
I have a couple of different swage die set-ups but still need to get some stuff from BT to be able to fully make use of everything.
I may just end up buying a LEE classic cast press and getting his [BT's] whole set-up to stream line everything, keeping my other set-up lined out for the j-4 set-up I have been using to make 65gr bullets with.

[wyrmzr]

Yep, you've hit on many of the points I've been considering as far as plain old cast in the .223. I plan from the start on weighing individual boolits, as well as the visual inspection. I kind of assumed that, with so small of a grain, even the slightest flaws could cause big differences in regard to weight percentages.
I figure if I'm lucky, I can get a cast .223 load to work for the AR, but initially my test bed will be my Savage Axis. The bolt action should be more forgiving than the AR would be, at least that's my hope.
If I simply cannot get just plain cast to run through that AR, then I can always relegate them to the Axis, and that will be the deciding factor as to how quickly I start swaging. I don't yet know of anyone in my immediate area who does swaged boolits, but I have a few contacts to talk to yet and see what I can find out.

[tiger762]

I have RCECO swaging press (Walnut Hill, $449) and two die sets from him. A 224-6S and a 452-TC. I have 310-4S (for the AK47), Tokarev and 308-8S sets on order as well. A 3-die set is $542. That will make one caliber with one point form style. You can adjust the weight. RCECO sells a LOT of different gilding metal jackets for very reasonable prices. Cheaper than J4, Sierra, Berger or Corbins.

In addition to the 224-6S set, you'll want the 22LR jacket making die to unroll the rim of a fired 22LR shell. That's $85. I added a reloading adaptor for $40. A pint of swaging lube (castor oil + lanolin) for $25.

Extruded lead wire will cost you about $3/lbs.

I have made 15,000+ 224 bullets so far, and about 1,000 45's

You can use a reloading press, but swaging presses exist for a reason. The shorter stroke gives more leverage and the bronze bushings are more accurate. I've made everything from 40gr to 77gr in 224, and 200gr to 300gr in 45.

If you do a lot of shooting, and have free time in the evenings, you will not regret the investment. Heck, the resale value is high for dies that have not been abused. Swaging stuff that gets advertised here gets scooped up quick.

[runfiverun]

I'd take a look at the rcbs 055-s, the saeco 60gr rn, or noes rcbs clone.
those have been the better 223 boolit molds I have seen.
the HM-2 mold I helped JT design is also a good one, it's based on a cross between the saeco and the rcbs with a slightly stouter nose.
but good luck getting one though, the owners won't part with them and JT won't be making any more molds for a while.

[BLASTER62]

Is there any one in your area you can go over to and watch the process? I had a lot of questions like yourself. I met up with a fellow swager, and after a 10 hour day, and spending several thousand on presses and dies, I'm hooked.

Auh shucks.

[Wolftracker]

A guy has to make and shoot a lot of bullets for this to be economical. It is fun. Snow machines, 4 wheelers and boats are also not economical, but we buy them anyway. Swaging allows experimentation and provides satisfaction when you are producing something that is superior to what others buy in the store (mostly). I spent too much but am having a hard time finding regret about it!

[HollowPoint]

I just recently finished up my second experimental set of 30 caliber swaging dies. The first set was just to see if I could do it or not. I'm using them to make smooth-sided rifle bullets for an ongoing Powder-Coated-Bullets experiment. They form Rebated-Boat-Tailed Hollow-Pointed rifle bullets. I can also use this die set to re-form the 30 caliber rifle bullets that I've cast from my professionally made NOE, Lyman and Lee bullet molds.

I made the dies to fit into my cheap little harbor freight 1/2-Ton Arbor press. I removed the ram on this Arbor-Press and chucked it up on my lathe to bore a 1/2" hole about an inch up the bottom end. This helps to center my dies with my punches. I just couldn't see paying 400, 500 or 700.00 dollars for something that may or not work out for me.

The bullet mold I'm working on now forms the hollow pointed cylindrical slugs that I'll use to form my bullets. This bullet mold too, is also the second experimental bullet mold I will have built for this experiment. The hollow pointing spud on this mold is adjustable so that I can cast cylindrical slugs of anywhere from 200 grains to 120 grains.

The "Adjustable" part keeps me from having to build several different molds in order to test several different bullet weights. Kudos to you guys here in the Swaging section of this forum. Alot of the information I've used in building my Home made swaging dies was gleaned from here.

If it all pans out for me I'll consider taking it a step further and making my own jacketed bullets as well. I'll have to wait and see.

HollowPoint