25/20 and high velocity with the Ranch Dog boolit

[Bullshop]

This is an attempt at a high velocity load for the Marlin 25/20 that has enough smack to anchor coyotes.
I was having great fun with the standard velocity loads with velocities about 1300 fps and harvesting cotton tail rabbits but I wanted this little Marlin 94 to serve double duty.
I think I have found a load that should soundly slap any Wiley that comes within 150 yards or so.
The boolit is the Ranch Dog TLC-80-RF. The target shown was fired at 100 yards with two different loads of WC-680. The group at bottom was 12gn and the group at top was 13gn. Pressure indicators seemed to show that there was still plenty of room to work at the 12gn load so I inched it up to 13gn.
The top group at 13gn was fired from my rickety rest and three different sittings.
I first fired two shots and they were pretty close to each other so I loaded two more then fired those. Then I had 4 in a nice tight cluster so I went in the shop and loaded another and retrieved my Ohler chrono. The 5th shot at the third sitting went nicely into the group and registered exactly 2100 fps on the Ohler. There are still no signs of excessive pressure with this load """ IN THIS GUN""" but I am satisfied with the load and will go no further. This is about 500 fps faster than any cataloged loads I have been able to find for the 25/20 wcf. It seems the 25 cal application of this case is far under loaded compared to the 22 cal version in the 218 Bee.
If anyone is interested in developing this type load in their Marlin and cant get the WC-680 powder the Winchester version is close. The AA version according to published burn rate charts a quite some faster burning. My load is right at about 100% density with the RD boolit seated to the crimp groove.
I have no idea how the Savage 23 series rifles compare in strength the the modern Marlin 94s so cant say if such loads are a good idea in them. This is my load in my rifle and may not be safe in any other so anyone venturing down this path use caution in developing a safe load to suit your rifle.
Incidentally the 12gn load went on average 1960 fps but from my rifle this load left cases rather sooty for most of the length. Going to the 13gn load cleaned up most but not all the black soot on the case neck.
Oh and I guess I should add that both loads used the Federal #205 magnum primer. I went with the mag primer for a couple reasons being the WC-680 is a ball powder that is a bit slow for application.
I have not yet tried standard primers but do intend to. I have often times found that the standard gave better accuracy but required a slight increase in powder charge to do so.
If anyone would like to try this boolit but does not have access to a Ranch Dog mold I am offering the boolits sized, lubed, and gas checked ready to load at $13.50 per 100 plus shipping. I can get 600 to 700 in a small flat rate box at $6.00
When Michael designed this boolit for the Marlin chamber he got it spot on at least that is what my rifle tells me. Seated to the crimp groove the ogive is ever so lightly touching the lands for a perfect fit.
I am sizing these in a die I opened up a wee bit to about .260" and this Marlin seems to not object to that.
Its about time to start putting some coyotes on stretchers so hope to report on this in the near future on weather it is up to its intended purpose. Happy hunting folks!
BTW if you click the pic I think it will enlarge.

[Bullshop Junior]

Very nice. Glad to see you are having fun with that rifle. Now, I want it back.

[Bullshop]

You will get it back but I doubt it will be a happy event for you.

[Bullshop Junior]

Thats just mean.

Thats better then I ever shot with it. I was gonna bring the scope and other stuff when I come in october.

[FLHTC]

Oooooh this is a cartridge that I love. I use 12 grains of N-200 or 13 grains of 4198 with a 257388 of monotype

[JWFilips]

Daniel,
Do you think that that is the best powder choice? ( or what you have)? Looks good but I have a feeling it could be best'ed
Just My Humble opinion
Jim

[Bullshop]

Well Jim I don't know for sure but I do plan on trying some other more traditional powders. I wanted to try for max velocity just to see what that was. The load data I have available tops out at 1500 to 1600 fps.
The traditional HV powders seem to be between 4227 and 4198 in burn rate. The WC-680 is in that bracket and I have a lot of it I got cheap so that is always a motivator.
I see this little lever gun coupled with its cartridge as a 150 yard gun and this load should handle most of what I will shoot at to that range. I developed the load with coyotes in mind so should be able to stay in the 6" kill zone to 150 yards or so.
Looks like accuracy is good enough for head shots on rabbits out to 100 yards too. With the standard velocity loads at about 1300 fps the accuracy is there for small game but the 100 yard trajectory is a bit of an ark so you have to call the range pretty darn close to make head shots with it past 50 yards. The HV load trims up that looping ark so eliminates the guess to 100 yards. Better accuracy is always good but at least I have something to work with that delivers acceptable accuracy to the usable range of the cartridge. Going by the target pictured that is something very close to the magic minute.

[JWFilips]

Well Jim I don't know for sure but I do plan on trying some other more traditional powders. I wanted to try for max velocity just to see what that was. The load data I have available tops out at 1500 to 1600 fps.
The traditional HV powders seem to be between 4227 and 4198 in burn rate. The WC-680 is in that bracket and I have a lot of it I got cheap so that is always a motivator.
I see this little lever gun coupled with its cartridge as a 150 yard gun and this load should handle most of what I will shoot at to that range. I developed the load with coyotes in mind so should be able to stay in the 6" kill zone to 150 yards or so.
Looks like accuracy is good enough for head shots on rabbits out to 100 yards too. With the standard velocity loads at about 1300 fps the accuracy is there for small game but the 100 yard trajectory is a bit of an ark so you have to call the range pretty darn close to make head shots with it past 50 yards. The HV load trims up that looping ark so eliminates the guess to 100 yards. Better accuracy is always good but at least I have something to work with that delivers acceptable accuracy to the usable range of the cartridge. Going by the target pictured that is something very close to the magic minute.

Daniel,
From what you are saying Now...I think you have that covered....I was going to suggest 4227 but looking at your data you may be on the right track
Well keep us posted of your findings.... Now looking it over a second time I think I would be hard pressed to best that!
Jim

[Bullshop]

You know Jim that with endless tweaking you can almost always squeeze a little better from any load. With this one and my equipment that last little bit of group reduction may take quite some time to find. I say my equipment because first this is a box stock lever gun to start with then if you saw my 12 oz plastic shaky wobbly rest you would have a good laugh. On top of that I have committed sacrilege by mounting a really cheap ( I paid $25.00 ) no name brand ( no one wants to claim it) scope that at best has foggy squinty lenses that make aiming something like looking into the wicked witch of the wests crystal ball.
So if I could just master those challenges I might get it down to a nickel instead of a quarter.

[leftiye]

I'd venture a guess for 300MP and std primers. I'm just finishing up restocking my model 94 cl 25-20. Put a 93 stock on it. Kinda a little cool with the thin comb and crescent buttplate (got rid of the Ducks Unlimited stock with the medallion, better wood too.). So I'll have to see if your load shoots well in my gun.

[denul]

Spear manual number 14 , using 1680, 4198,and 2400, and others, behind their 75 grain jacketed bullet, indicated that 1680 beat the others in accuracy and velocity while staying within pressure specs for the cartridge.

[JWFilips]

Ok, Now It's one of those "egg on my face moments" .....that's a 100yd target! ( didn't see that on the small picture) I thought 50yds. Looks like I'll have to get one of those scopes & rests!!!

[Bullshop]

My scope and rest could be made available but albeit at a premium price because they will have been previously owned by a celebrity, A legend in my own mind.


Leftiye
So do you have the Ranch Dog mold? I would like to see your rifle after restocking. Sounds like quite an improvement. I had one sometime back with the medallion in the stock and didn't like it either.

denul
Could you tell me the top velocity given for that bullet weight in that Speer book? I would also like to know the pressure if it is indicated. What data I have available shows the 25/20 as being limited in top allowable pressure compared to the 218 Bee and I see no good reason for it when both are used in the same launch platform. With a previously owned Marlin 25/20 I had the 70gn Lyman boolit same weight as the Speer bullet going somewhere near 2300 fps with accuracy enough to explode the large feathered black vermin of Alaska at 75 yards from my shop to a brush pile which is where I dumped chicken guts after butchering. That load would absolutely demolish those large black feathered pests.
I took a smallish about 250 lbs black bear with that load once when I was out rabbit hunting when the bear made itself a target of opportunity. With that little 70gn boolit placed just behind and above the ear hole at maybe 50 yards it took the top of the bears head clean off.
I turned that gun over to my Dad some years ago before he passed on with the load data I had worked up for that boolit. I thought I had kept a copy of that data and may have but I sure cant find it now.
Eventually I will get back to that lighter Lyman boolit and see what its limits are with this new to me Marlin that is kind of a replacement for the other one mentioned.

[btroj]

You will get it back but I doubt it will be a happy event for you.

Man, that was harsh. I will say it sounds like something I would say to my daughter.

Junior, just think of the memories that rifle will include when you get it back.

[Scharfschuetze]

Wow!

That's way better than anything I've shot through my Marlin 1894 in 25/20. I don't have that Ranch Dog mould or a gas check mould in 25 calibre for that matter, so I may order some of those boolits from you to see if they improve that Marlin's performance.

I don't know how strong the Savage 23 rifles are either, but mine is extraordinarily accurate so it might be fun to work up a load in it too.

[Mk42gunner]

Dan, here is data from the Speer #13 for AA-1680 with their 75 gr FP: 12.5 gr for 2008 fps. This from a Marlin 1894 CL 22" barrel. They state the industry standard for the .25-20 is 28,000 cup.

The second ed. Lee also gives 12.5 gr as max with 1983 fps and 27,600 cup, no barrel length listed.

Speer #13 also give the pressure limit on the .218 Bee as 40,000 cup.

You are the second person I have read of using the little .25 on black bears, Russell Annabel was the first. I still don't think it is a very good idea, but it would be better than using a sharpened stick.

Robert

[Bullshop]

Robert I agree with you that the 25/20 is no bear gun. That wet afternoon when I went out rabbit hunting with the little Marlin and spotted the bear I had to stop and have a little meeting with me, myself, and I about weather we would attempt going after the bear.
I was totally against the idea but was out voted by me and myself so they decided to give it a try. I indicated I wanted nothing to do with this stunt but was forced to go along. They were successful in their attempt and now I forever have to live with their gloating.
If ever again faced with the same situation I will still vote no but still I am only one vote in three and usually those two other not so level headed parts prevail. I used to think when they became older that wisdom derived through time would imply some more reasonable reasoning ability tempered with a bit of common sense but the truth is those two fools haven't changed a bit.

[Bullshop]

Robert
Thank you for that data. It looks like I am in line with their work. It also looks like I was right about the industry established pressure difference between the 25/20 and the 218 Bee. I really don't understand why the difference because both cartridges have been traditionally loaded in the same types of actions and both are on the same case.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

For all to have this:

25-20
Ranch Dog bullets

Carolina Cast Bullets
P.O. Box 7755
North Augusta, SC 29861-7755

100 / $13.00
500 / $49.50

bullets shipped for USPS (small or medium)

Jerry

[Bullshop Junior]

The 25/20 can be chambered in a 25wcf gun. The 25wcf was lower pressure.