a beginners question on modern semi auto handguns

[johnson1942]

im not a beginner on guns or handguns just the latest modern semi autos. ive owned in the way past at least 20 handguns. high standard supermatic trophy's, victors, browning 9mm made in belgium, every top rated .22 auto their ever was. ive shot the 1911, and even had a few colt ssa/s. now here is what i would like to know. my son visited me last week for a couple of days. he had 3 guns he loves and we shot them. one was a smith .40 cal modern semiauto. the other two were .9mm and .45 auto springfields. i have never shot guns with such bad triggers in all my life. i never told him that but are all modern autos as bad as those 3? my cap guns from when i was a kid had better triggers than those 3. here is the big question. are their any modern autos out their with a trigger that is clean and crisp and you dont have to be superman to set it off. no creep at all. all i shoot now are really good double set triggers but i remember the guns i used to have and every trigger on all of them was clean, crisp and of a good weight. even the browning 9mm auto. probably the best hand gun for accuracy and ease of shooting was a big smith in .45 long colt. you could take a snakes head off at 30 yards. some day in the future i want to buy my son a modern semiauto that is like the days gone by ones. easy to hold with perfect trigger let off. ok guys and gals which one is it, or do i have to have one made. please help me on this im way way out of touch. ill give you a hint at my age. when i shot with 7 other sailors and sixty marines and got the top score off all of them and i mean way ahead of all of them it was with a smith .38 special with a 5 inch barrel. i loved that gun and carried it in a shoulder holster for a long time and trusted it with my life back then. it never failed me. thanks before hand. johnson1942

[Lead Fred]

Sig Sauer P220, the finest production 45 made, and only handgun I would own.
They come in girlie calibers too

[KYCaster]

There are some after market parts available that will improve the triggers on the modern semi-autos dramatically, and many gunsmiths who specialize in trigger enhancement work on them.....

......but.....

......they'll never equal a good S&W DA, or a SAA, or a good 1911.

With LOTS of practice you can learn to shoot them well, but when you've learned to shoot with the real thing, they just never feel right.

If you're interested in improving the triggers on your son's plastic fantastics, check out the Brian Enos forums. Some of those guys are really serious about their gun games and know what they're talking about.

Good luck
Jerry

[Artful]

Smith&Wesson upgrade trigger kits
https://apextactical.com/store/produ...pg1-cid11.html

Springfield XD
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-par...prod53900.aspx
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/

[MtGun44]

I normally set up my 1911s with a two pound trigger pull and they will hold that for
many tens of thousands of rounds. Crisp, light and delightful to shoot.

I have handled a VERY nice S&W M&P in .45 ACP that had a "Ajax" (?) or some other
name that starts with an "A" - trigger modification kit put into it and it was a very
good trigger too.

I put a really nice trigger on a Browning HP, so I know that can be done, too.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

I normally set up my 1911s with a two pound trigger pull and they will hold that for
many tens of thousands of rounds. Crisp, light and delightful to shoot.

I have handled a VERY nice S&W M&P in .45 ACP that had a "Ajax" (?) or some other
name that starts with an "A" - trigger modification kit put into it and it was a very
good trigger too.

I put a really nice trigger on a Browning HP, so I know that can be done, too.

Bill

Kind of curious about your 1911 2# trigger pulls. I've always read that 1911's in order to work correctly had to have 3.5 trigger pulls. Out of curiosity what are you using for aftermarket parts and special angles?

[johnson1942]

thanks guys, i kind of figured the 1911 was the way to go. my other son who is in law enforcement uses a kimber 1911,.45cal auto for his side arm. ive never shot it but he gave up a smith .40 auto for it.

[contender1]

If you notice a theme here,,, most modern semi-autos have to have work done on them to make them "clean, crisp & smooth." Even many 1911's will need a bit of work. But,,,, if I had to get one out of the box to work with the 1911 would be my first choice.

[MrWolf]

I normally set up my 1911s with a two pound trigger pull and they will hold that for
many tens of thousands of rounds. Crisp, light and delightful to shoot.

I have handled a VERY nice S&W M&P in .45 ACP that had a "Ajax" (?) or some other
name that starts with an "A" - trigger modification kit put into it and it was a very
good trigger too.

I put a really nice trigger on a Browning HP, so I know that can be done, too.

Bill

That was probably the Apex Duty/Carry upgrade. I did that for my M&P 45 and made a big difference.

Ron

[gray wolf]

1911 pattern guns do not need a 3.5# trigger pull to work.
It depends on who does the work and the quality of the parts.

Some people like to drop the slide on a 1911 with an empty chamber,
good by nice trigger job.

Some like to drop a single round in the chamber and slam the slide closed over it.
Bad for the extractor.

Shot a Sig 1911 over the weekend, beautiful pistol. checkered front grip, ambi safety,
tight slide, parked finish, target sights, snake skin grips and main spring housing.
Had an internal (normal ) and an external extractor showing.

Trigger was absolutely horrible, creepy, crunchy, and about 6-7 pounds.
The guy said the pistol listed for about $1,200

This pistol was set up for target shooting, I guess you could duty carry it even with the target sights.

As it was without trigger work, the pistol would be useless to me.
It needed a 3# trigger or at least a 4.5 # with a clean break.

[robertbank]

I think you have to understand most of the pistols you run into are not designed to shoot bullseye shooting. They are, in the main, made for LEO/Military work. The IPSC/IDPA crowd use them. With some use of trigger parts and loving care be turned into pistols with very nice smooth triggers. In short you can still buy pistols for bullseye shooting BUT the present market for civilians tends to be action shooting as in IPSC/USPSA and IDPA and guns made for CCW/home defense. The latter uses don't require triggers that break like glass at 3lbs but do require the guns to be very reliable with, quick to access sights.

I shoot a fair amount of IPSC and IDPA and the only pistols I see jamming consistently are the 1911's due to poor lubrication, ammo or having not been cleaned. Parts breakage for the most part is not common at matches I have been to. They do occur, eg. my striker broke on my M&P at a match. It was an early model with the original striker in it. I knew the early guns had a problem with the strikers and should have replaced it earlier. Other than that one incident guns I have used have been dead reliable including CZ, Tanfoglio, STI, Ruger, S&W and FN. I have used SIGS in competition but they do work - our JTF -2 boys use them so they must be capable.

If you are looking for an all steel gun you should be able to find a CZ that will meet your needs. They are easily the most accurate of the guns I have shot. Their CZ97B in 45acp will shoot with the best of 1911`s out of the box. Mine needs a set of decent sights. The ones on it are meant for younger eyes.

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Browning Hi-Power. Just a beautiful gun all the way around!!

[johnson1942]

i guess im to old to understand what the new striker trigger guns are all about. if they are supposed to be about combat i dont get it. when i was carrying a handgun way back for combat the last thing i wanted to think about was a trigger i had to think about. i thought about can i put a round into the center of the guy trying to put one in me. i also loved the m1 and the bar i could really hit with those guns. i was really good at kentucky windage as i learned that hunting before i went in in 1960. im going to look up the CZ-97b .45 and see what that is about. also i see 1911 and browning hipowers are still avail. and i bet if they were tuned right they could be fast and shoot dead on. thanks guys, keep the info coming, im learning a lot.

[robertbank]

johnson1942 I`m 69 and soon to enter the eighth decade and have to say the M&P`s and Glocks bring a whole new meaning of reliability. Too, they are relatively inexpensive. LEO departments love them because they cost little, fill a void and allow for money to be spent in law enforcement that has higher pay back. They work for what I want in a gun, that is to allow me to play two games better than I could otherwise. That said I just bought a new CZ Shadowline for twice what I paid for my M&P FS for no other reason than it looks great, shoots better and because I can.

Nice to have choices in a changing world. Love to be here 50 years from now and see what gin folks are discussing but that isn`t likely going to happen.

All the best

Bob

[DrCaveman]

My dad, about you two's age, beat me to buying a striker fired handgun, it was the smith m&p 9mm

I was surprised, his most modern firearm prior was the colt trooper III. I shot it poorly the first time, but then i shot my revolvers double action a bit later. Went back and shot the m&p, thinking of it as double action, and it shot better than the smith m19...double action. For me.

I still like my 1911 single action break better, or my cimarron saa 45, or the single action use of any of my DA revolvers, but for a dual-action-only gun, i think the m&p is pretty good

[robertbank]

Interesting discussion. MY IDPA gun us most often a M&P Pro with a 3lb trigger. My home defense gun (nothing that follows is true if the RCMP are listening) is a M&P 40 with a 6lb trigger and or a CZ 85 Combat with an eight pound DA trigger.

Take Care

Bob

[garym1a2]

I like my 3 glocks quite a bit, for their purpose they are very good. But to tune them to get near the trigger pull of a bad 1911 makes the Glock very unsafe.
with practice its no problem to shoot them well. I also have hear that the CZ75 types have triggers almost as good as 1911's

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Col Jeff Cooper was here years ago and I remember him saying the Glock has a trigger that is hard to make good marksmanship work with. I laughed and laughed. The striker pin guns are popular because they are cheap. I'm a LEO and our Dept. issues them. There's another issue, the courts don't like LEO's to have their shootings reviewed and find the gun used was altered from factory specs. Glocks come out of the box into the holster and pass inspection after a shooting with that box checked clean and the bean counters are happy.

I stick with the 1911 because the trigger pull is everything when it comes to hitting.

There are the strong pro-Glock voices in law enforcement too but you won't hear it from me. The High Power and and the 1911 are in a totally different class from the Glock. Union wages helped to make striker pin guns popular on the market, they will always cost less than the older designs.

[robertbank]

Well in fairness, the Hi-Power designed by Sauve has a trigger out of the box about on the same level as a Glock or worse.

Pumping out polymer frames via injection molding has to be cheaper than casting/forging a steel frame then finishing by hand for the most part.

The Browning does have sex appeal that Glock could only dream about. Beyond looks, until the CZ/Tanfoglio came out was there a equal or better grip on a pistol better than a HiPower?? I don't think so.

Take Care

Bob

[KYCaster]

i guess im to old to understand what the new striker trigger guns are all about. if they are supposed to be about combat i dont get it. when i was carrying a handgun way back for combat the last thing i wanted to think about was a trigger i had to think about. i thought about can i put a round into the center of the guy trying to put one in me. i also loved the m1 and the bar i could really hit with those guns. i was really good at kentucky windage as i learned that hunting before i went in in 1960. im going to look up the CZ-97b .45 and see what that is about. also i see 1911 and browning hipowers are still avail. and i bet if they were tuned right they could be fast and shoot dead on. thanks guys, keep the info coming, im learning a lot.

The only thing you need to understand is......it has nothing at all to do with marksmanship or "combat", and everything to do with economics.

Gaston Glock, who introduced the "modern" striker fired semi-auto, designed a gun that could be sold in large quantities at less than half the cost of S&W and Sig, who dominated the market at the time.

Add the passive "safe action" that substantially reduced the initial training required to become "proficient" with the firearm and the bean counters were really impressed.

Didn't matter that failure rates were astronomical, factory support was good and parts were cheap. Didn't matter that negligent discharges were common, just increase the trigger pull weight (New York Trigger) to the point that it was hard to discharge. Didn't matter that qualification scores took a nose dive, just lower your standards. Didn't matter that it has the ergonomics of a 2X4, most or your recruits never held a gun before so they don't know what a good grip feels like.

After all, very few LEO's ever discharge their firearms in the line of duty, so it really doesn't matter, statistically.....and you have 17 rounds in the gun and two spare mags on your belt.....if 50 rounds don't get the job done, let the lawyers work it out.

I hope that kinda clears it up for you. I'm sure I'll get some flack for expressing my opinion, but that's OK, I'm willing to answer questions or defend my position if necessary.

Jerry