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Thread: WC 860 in garand (again) :-D

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    WC 860 in garand (again) :-D

    Well, I did a search on this powder for use in the garand, and most people said it would damage the op-rod. No one mentioned what kind of loads though (not that I noticed, anyway).

    Someone made the comment in a thread that it is bulky, so much to the point of basically acting as it's own filler (i think richochet maybe?). Anyways, wouldn't that make it ideal for sending a CB at a moderate velocity (like 1700ish)? On my chart it is only a few powders slower than 4831, which has been suggested in the "BobS" load. Anyone have a quantitative idea on how reduced a load would have to be not to damage the oprod, and what the results would look like?

    Does anyone have quickload that could run a simulation to see what gas port pressures would look like?

    What about if an adjustable gas plug were used? Could you just fill a case full and use an adjustable gas plug?

    Reading about fillers has made me nervous. I plan to use this ammo in "tactical" matches and the ammo is gonna get banged around, I don't want powder to get in front of the filler (read about KB from this). Is that fear reasonable or no?

    And the kicker, this powder is cheap and available. I work in a machine shop and could easily make all the adjustable gas plugs I'd need. So, what do you guys think?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master DaveInFloweryBranchGA's Avatar
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    Having shot a lot of 30.06 in a Garand, I think you ought to run 4895, that's what I think. Op rods are expensive and 4895 works well, isn't position sensitive that I could ever tell over several years of High Power shooting.

    As far as a "cheap" powder, the powder is your least expensive component in a cartridge. Hardly seems worth it to risk an op rod over trying an inexpensive powder. Especially so since Garands are beginning to dry up, along with their parts supply.

    Dave

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master
    Ben's Avatar
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    Based on everything I've ever read I'd Ditto Dave's suggestions to you.

    Slow powders and bent operating rods on a Garand go together like fleas and a dog.

    Ben
    Last edited by Ben; 02-15-2008 at 11:38 PM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
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    This isn't just to save money,most of this is just the joy of experimenting too. I have to disagree with you on powder being the cheapest thing. I don't know where you get your brass and stuff from... but with what I buy it is the most expensive element by a lot (in 30.06 anyway).

    I'm hoping for more discussion. I've read about how dirty it is and probably won't use it for that factor... but I don't see how I could damage the oprod if I vent the gas plug. Start off with the largest vent and work my way down until the system functions. It seems like this would free up a lot of powders and loads for use in the garand.

    I'm not trying to argue with you, I seriously just want to discuss the prospects with people. I'm not just looking for a quick answer.

    I do appreciate your replies and concern, i really do. Don't worry too much though, I"m not just looking for an excuse to run out there and bend my oprod with the cheapest powder I can find. I just happen to like tinkering with these sorts of things.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy

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    How much WC 860 do you have on hand?

    JCherry

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Have you priced an op rod that has a piston in spec lately? You can spend
    $150 on one that is marginal and I have seen new ones offered (who knows if
    they actually sell) for $250 at gun shows.

    I've seen a piston 1/2 of 0.001" under spec cause stoppages, they really mean
    it when they say that XXXX is the minimum spec on the piston.

    You'd have to save an awful lot to afford a new oprod.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Scrounger's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if venting will work, it's probably worth a try. I just want to make sure you understand how the op-rod could be damaged. The whole system is designed to operate at a particular gas pressure at the gas port near the muzzle. Using slow burning powders could make gas pressures too high and warp or break the op-rod. Of course loading the slow burning powders to a lower max pressure would not cause damage. My physics isn't good enough to tell me whether a larger or smaller gas port would give you the correct pressure.

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub
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    I don't have the gas plug with me right now, but here was what I was thinking about.

    Make a new gas plug, with...say 1/4-28 threaded hole concentric to the plug threads (or bigger if it would fit, haven't looked yet). Then I would basically take some set screws and drill various size holes in them. I'd start off with maybe a hole diameter of .2 in the first screw, and have a set with maybe .010" increments and work my way down until the action would function. Excess gas would just shoot through the hole in the screw. This would lower the pressure in the gas cyclinder, allowing high pressure at the gas port but only lower pressure acting on the op rod.

    When I figured out what size hole to use I could make a solid one with just that size hole, or make one that is adjustable through a range around that value. This would give greater freedom of loads.

    I'm not stuck on w860, I don't even have any. At this point I'm talking about varying burn rates in general. Seems like this could make the garand less powder sensitive. I know they use the adjustable gas blocks on the .300 whisper ar15 to enable a great variety in load types and pressures.

    Some of my concerns are.. if the powder is dirty what is the danger in clogging the vent hole, etc

    Again, I'm not just waiting to run outside and run this in my garand. I just want something to experiment with.

  9. #9
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    MeestaSparkle,

    Here are a couple links to adjustable gas plugs for a Garand... I have never used one, but would be interested in trying one so that the rifle would function as a single shot. It works to adjust the pressure that is sent back through the op rod, just as you have described. The process of using the largest plug and working down is the correct way to figure out what size vent you need.

    http://www.adcofirearms.com/gasnuts.cfm

    http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store...cat=288&page=1

    http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/855569

    If it matters, the plug may be Service Rifle Legal, but it will not be JC Garand match legal.

  10. #10
    Boolit Bub
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    There's a lot of opinion about effects of slow powder or heavy bullet loads on the op rod, and bloody little documentation. There seems to be some truth to it, but it looks to me like a lot is urban legend. Keeping in mind that your CMP M1 op rod probably has thousands of rounds and hundreds of field strips on it, some of the bent op rods may be accelerated but inevitable failure because of wear, fatigue and old, weak op rod springs.

    Gas port pressure numbers are extremely scarce. This is the only source on the net I could find:


    Peak pressure at the gas port with M2 ball seems to be in the neighborhood of 8200 psi with 9400 psi on the high side. Since there are reported cast bullet loads reported that will cycle the M1 action with 35gr of IMR4895 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...77&postcount=2) -- fully 13 grains or more under milspec -- the low end appears to be very low.

    One thing is true. The lower the gas port pressure, the easier on the action and the brass. Adjustable vented gas lock screws work. That being said, adjusting the gas lock screw to lightly cycle on M2 ball should allow enough overhead to safely develop slow powder loads.

    Here's an interesting thread on (horreurs!) duplex loads with cannon powder including development with the .30-06:
    I don't recommend anyone using duplex loads for any reason in any firearm whatsoever. However, as long as cheap 50BMG and cannon powder are still available, this may be a way to utilize them in smaller cartridges while supplies last. YMMV.
    (O)(o)
    ---0000-(. .)-0000---

  11. #11
    On Heaven's Range

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    Gentlemen;

    Shooting CAST bullets in the Garand is a different kettle of fish from using jacketed projectiles.

    The pressure curves are different, and the way the rifle reacts is different.

    The caveats expressed on this thread concerning op-rod damage are very true, but slow-burning powders WILL work with cast bullets in the M1, without risk to the rifle.

    The critical factor in the whole situation is gas-port pressure. Too high, and the risks of damage arise. Too low, and the rifle won't function. THE POWDER TYPE REALLY DOESN'T MATTER, within reason, as long as the port pressure is within the safe operating range.

    In my standard M1 rifles, with the original gas plug and everything else as-issued, cast bullets work wonderfully-well with powders as slow as H-4831. 860 may do just as well, but I haven't tried it. Around 40 grains of H- or IMR-4831 with a CAST bullet of somewhere around 180 grains is a good starting point. Working the load up a bit, stop the increases when either accuracy is satisfactory, or WHEN THE EJECTED CASES LAND IN THE SAME AREA AS NORMAL JACKETED-BULLET LOADS. When the ejection pattern is similar to the jacketed loads, you have essentially duplicated the GAS-PORT pressure of regular full-power ammunition (not the chamber pressure), and have a safe load.

    Also, the old tales of not shooting anything over 175 grains in a Garand do NOT apply to cast bullets. My rifles happily ate up many, many rounds loaded with everything up to 220 grains (311284), and again, it's the port pressure that determines the utility of the load.

    Do a search for "BobS", and at the top of the second page you'll find a thread titled "BobS's M1 Recipe". It's a well-written long post on exactly this subject of using slow-powder in the M1. READ IT!

    I think there's a distinct possibility that 860 might work, but I KNOW that H- and IMR-4831 DO work, and so does 4350.
    Regards from BruceB in Nevada

    "The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    could you post a link on Bob's recipe. I can't find it.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check