Large pistol primers or large rifle primers for a 44-40

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

....and to add to what Savvy Jack said. Just because a cartridge has MAGNUM in it's name doesn't mean that the use of magnum primers is necessary. Use the published data from a known reliable source and then experiment with different primers if you are under maximum listed charge weight and if you are willing to risk the consequences. (case failure/bullet lodged in barrel/poor accuracy.....)
Case in point(pun intended) I reload 357 Magnum for revolver and rifle. Two fun loads that I shoot are a relatively small charge of Titegroup or Greendot and a CCI #500 primers. I shoot them in a Ruger Vaquero and a Winchester 1892. The load for rifle and revolver is the same because that is what was used to develop the load. The cartridge has magnum in it's name and I am shooting it in a rifle. I am however using standard small pistol primers because that is what is called for in the load data.

[Savvy Jack]

In my brief amateurish strain gauge testings...I have experienced up to an additional 2,000 psi increase in pressures between using WLPs and CCI-300 primers in a specific load. If one fails to properly hand-load a specific load correctly, i.e. seating depth, proper bullet, case length, powder charge, distance between bullet and lands (AOL), one could have a bad day.

[Savvy Jack]

Excerpt from Winchester's 1895 catalog #55

"Care should be taken to set the primer well down. The pocket in the shell is always made deep enough to allow the primer to be set below the surface of the head of the shell. Premature explosions and misfires are often caused by failing to attend to this particular."

During this time primers were Winchester Primer No.1's for the 44-40 (44WCF)

[NSB]

Follow the loading manual, not internet comments. You never know anything about who's giving advice on the net, but the manual is pretty reliable.

[bicyclemonkey]

My Hodgdon book used large rifle primers.

[Savvy Jack]

My Hodgdon book used large rifle primers.

lol, yeap...funny

[woody1]

Corrected in Hodgdon Data Manual No. 26 4th printing to Large Pistol Primers with no other change in data.

[Ozark mike]

Regardless of pocket depth it doesn't take much to ignite real bp which is what many use in there gun. Fast Pistol powders usually ignite easily also but a lot of slower rifle powders need a rifle primer. So that means a pistol primer is usually all you need. Maybe some guns will be more accurate with one or the other just make sure of the depth before

[robg]

Pistol primers ,have used rifle primers ,they sit proud in the cases I used them in .

[dangitgriff]

Like I said, never trust anyone's information...measure your own

My measurement of my newly purchased Starline brass' primer pocket.

Measurment from the outside wall where the primer seats is .1235" deep
Attachment 230580

CCI-200 Rifle Primer = .1275" Length
CCI-300 Large Pistol = .1205" Length
Remington 1 1/2 Primer = .1215 Length
Winchester WLP = .1195" Length

Starline = .1235" Deep
RP Brass = .119" Deep
Winchester = .119" Deep

If using my batch of CCI-300 pistol primers with my batch of Winchester or RP brass, you might get a primer extruding .0015" past the case rim.
If using my batch of CCI-200 rifle primers with my batch of Starline brass, you might get a primer extruding .004" past the case rim.
If using my batch of CCI-200 rifle primers with my batch of Winchester or RP brass, you might get a primer extruding .0085" past the case rim.

Just for kicks, my 45-70 Starline pockets are .131" thus using the CCI-200 rifle primers would result in a .0035" recess rather than any kind of extrusion.

Now that my brain is total corn mush right now, I am gonna go take a nap!!

Thank you for posting these measurements—it explains why my WLP primers were seated too deep in new Starline .41 Special brass. Had to pull 30 rounds apart and toss the powder (lead shavings in it from the cast bullets), then back them out gently with my universal decapping die. The first 3 went too far and had to be ingeniously re-seated flush again using my press.
—Griff

[Reverend Al]

I've always used large pistol primers in my .44-40's and I've had at least 7 of them now ...

[dangitgriff]

I figured that would raise some eyebrows...
If they were anything but brand-new Starline .41 SPCL cases, I would have tossed them out. Only backed them out maybe 1/16”. Here’s a pic of them taken at the range after attempting to fire them:

[Captain*Kirk]

Good deal that somebody dug up this zombie thread, as I am preparing to load .44-40 for my Winchester '66 within the next week using new Starline brass.
Being a brass receiver rifle, I wish to keep the loads below the 7000 CUP mark. I've noticed that a 10gr increase in powder nearly doubles the CUP readings with Unique...and simply changing primer brands alters it noticeably as well based on different manuals.
I will stick with pistol primers, as the reloading manuals advise.

[dangitgriff]

Griff
Pushing out live primers would make me nervous - I wuz gonna say why not just fire em off but that didnt work - the whole thing is not making much sense - 41 mag gets my vote as a pistol calibre - starline has obviously formed these for rifle primers - why would they do that?

I woulda soaked that brass in water for a week then just deprimed and started over - woulda used federal rifle primers in that Starline brass I think.
You still got all yr fingers so its all good.

I think I will follow your advice if this ever happens again. Not worth the risk to save 90 cents’ worth of primers.
—Griff

[OverMax]

Being a rookie reloader. I'm aware in different locals stocked shelves differ. To state hard to find component in good times. Is very feasible.

Depending on powder used. (fast or slow burning) Determines whether or not a substitute LP primer can be used so say the old timers.} But than again I've found the usage of one particular brand of L-P primers suits both needs of low pressured & Magnum reloadings. >Winchester brand.

Then again seating of Magnum or rifle primers in older antiquated cartridges often create problems.
1. High primers not seated fully flush with their cartridge base. As pistol & rifle primers actually differ in overall dimensions. Not by much but they do.
2. Multi fired semi-straight wall pistol cases never trimmed quite often split at mouth & down due to excessive pressure a rifle primer can generate.
So my advice when possible to purchase LP._ Buy Winchester brand and never worry between Regular & Magnum use.

[Savvy Jack]

Just use Remington #2 primers...problem solved!

[longbow]

Well, many years ago I made the mistake of using large rifle primers in .44 mag. for my 1894 Marlin. I do not recall if it was a conscious decision because it was a rifle or if I just used what I had because I knew they were the same diameter and it is a rifle the cartridges would be used in. Seems to me there was a somewhat hotter rifle load for .44 mag. back then but regardless, that's what I used. I had no problem at all with function and no problems chambering.

I was loading with a Lee Loader and occasional a primer would pop during seating. Didn't happen often but it did happen so I checked dimensions and found that large rifle primers are indeed deeper than large pistol primers. I didn't realize that so learned something.

I was loading "hot" but saw no excess pressure signs so they certainly didn't raise pressures much. The danger of a high primer being set off when chambered is something to worry about though. There might also be an issue with high primers in the tube mag as well during recoil. I shot quite a number of round rounds (several hundred?) loaded with LR primers with nary a hitch except for the occasional primer that popped during seating. Once I learned I didn't repeat.

A little off topic is my observation that if they weren't meant to be interchangeable then they should have been made different diameters so they could not possibly be loaded into the wrong brass. What bonehead decided to make them the same diameter but different heights!?! This leads to the possibility of LP primers being seated in high pressure rifle brass and LR primers being seated in pistol brass and standing proud. Danger both ways! As Hootmix found... anyone can make a mistake so why make it easy to make the mistake?

Anyway, in Hootmix's case I would have checked to see if they chambered okay and if so then I would have shot them. I don't believe there is any significant danger except for the possibility of the high primer being set off in a tight chambering situation. They'd be good for informal target or linking rounds. That's just me.

Conversely, if I found I had seated LP primers in my .308 brass... I'd be pulling bullets! Unless they were light cast boolit loads.

Longbow

[moosemike]

Griff
Pushing out live primers would make me nervous - I wuz gonna say why not just fire em off but that didnt work - the whole thing is not making much sense - 41 mag gets my vote as a pistol calibre - starline has obviously formed these for rifle primers - why would they do that?

I woulda soaked that brass in water for a week then just deprimed and started over - woulda used federal rifle primers in that Starline brass I think.
You still got all yr fingers so its all good.

I've popped out a lot of live primers. Never an issue.

[moosemike]

I've even reused the primers and they worked!

[gunnie]

I too have removed live primers from cases and whilst I understand the hesitation of some folks, I do not find any issue with it. I'm an explosives technician and understand the chemicals used, sensitivity, reaction, handling etc and as long as you don't go at it like a bull at a gate, all should be fine. Where problems will occur is with brass that has crimped primers, most notably military brass. In which case the options are to either fire off the primers or 'kill' the primers through chemical neutralization. The best method here is light machine oil added to the case and allowed to sit for a few days. Then the primers can be removed with a universal de-priming die.

As for the 'swapping' primers aspect. I run both pistol & rifle primers in my 44-40, 32-20, 357Mag & 44Mag reloads. Now, as part of my normal case prep procedures, all cases have the primer pockets uniformed and a light chamfer with the case mouth deburring tool. This way all primer pockets are of uniform diameter & depth. Ergo there should then be no issue with differences in primer cup heights.

I also run an internal chamfer on the flash hole to remove any burrs, deformity in flash hole and to ensure the flash hole is the correct size.

Reloads wise, most of my loads for the above listed cartridges, are not hot. I run coated cast projectiles over mild powder charges or TrailBoss powder. To note; I have been running pistol primers in my 17 Ackley Hornet, 22Hornet & 22 K-Hornet reloads for the past 20yrs. The advantage of running a small pistol primer being a lower initial peak pressure wave prior to total powder consumption pressure peak, which apparently prevents the projectile from moving forward before the full pressure wave begins. I was put onto this reloading method for my Hornet rifles years ago by an old ballistician I used to do the odd explosives inspection work with. He'd reloaded for Hornets for some 45yrs and had found the use of pistol powders to aid in accuracy with the cartridge.

Even though he explained the theory behind it, I'm still sceptical, but will admit that it does produce slightly better results than using rifle primers. Go figure!!