Do you make your own defense rounds?

[mallen]

This is probably a question asked by many new folks. and iv read people don't like doing it. but it seems to me, if cast bullets and hand loaded rounds, customized to your firearm and yourself and are thus more accurate, would this not be better? (assuming you use hollow point molds of course.

As far as the arguments iv read "a lawyer will make it seem as if you made more powerful rounds with intent to kill", I use +p defense rounds. the max my firearm will take, already "more powerful" and the same that the police us. i cant see that argument actually meaning much in court, so id like to ask about the rounds themselves.

[txsnowman2k2]

imho, i think it is that the jury only has to HEAR, that "the shooter made his own bullets to kill" and that will tank the proceedings... you can't un-ring a bell... once heard, might not go so good... i would buy the nastiest round that is available at wally world, kmart, etc... and have that as my home defense round...just my 2 cents...tx

[truckerdave397]

The only rounds I will ever use are the ones that are on sale. Nobody can pass up a good sale.

[jmort]

It is baseless nonsense that loading your own ammunition will get you in trouble. There has never ever been a single case where someone loaded his own ammunition for self-defense and got in trouble for it. Never ever. The primary case relied on by the people promoting this notion involved a man who murdered his girlfriend. He said it was a suicide and he is a convicted killer. Ask Harold Fish, who was convicted in a matter involving alleged self-defense, where evidence was allowed that he used a "powerful" 10 mm and had lots of ammunition and guns and took advance firearms training. He was convicted, and fortunately, his conviction was overturned and the trial court was ordered to retry the case based on the appeal. The proponents of the "no reload doctrine" never warn of the real danger of using "powerful" handguns and having lots of guns and ammunition and taking advance firearms training. If you are scared, use the exact gun and ammunition used by the local LEOs.

[Oreo]

IANAL, YMMV
I've come to a few conclusions for myself. First is that if I have to shoot defensively, in the aftermath the least of my concerns will be the ammo used. The bigger concern is just making sure I protect my family and self in a way that keeps me out of jail. Defend your life with whatever you've got. Cast boolits, JHPs, bug spray, or a friggin frying pan if that's all that's available. Survive first, everything else second.

Second, there's lots of folks here who have shown their cast boolits perform on game as well or better then any commercially produced ammo, so It can be done. However, testing your boolits and loads for terminal performance will be important. A lot of expensive engineering and development goes into the commercial defensive ammo. By the time you do repeated gel and chronograph testing to find the perfect alloy and mv to achieve optimal expansion and penetration you're in pretty deep for time and resources. A few boxes of the best commercial ammo money can buy is, what, $75? If you're going to commit to it do so because you enjoy the task and see it through all the way. If you're going to half-*** it, just buy your SHTF ammo instead.

[pipehand]

If there is a case of self defense, it does not matter what the life is defended with. I would welcome the prosecuting attorney's attack on the type of bullet used as an admission that the shoot was good, and that only by throwing out the "black talon" canard, and throw it back in his face. BTW, I live in a "Castle Doctrine" state.

The handloads for defense thread pops up many times on many internet forums, and Massad Ayoob's name is often brought up. Never have handloads been an issue in a righteous shoot.

[dubber123]

One of the biggest reasons I carry my own ammo is I have 3 times over the past 30 years run into factory ammo with NO powder in it. The live primers fired, but that was it. I have never once forgotten to put powder in a case, especially my self defense ammo, which I am super anal retentive about loading.

[jmort]

Tell that to Harold Fish.

[runfiverun]

I'm pretty sure most everybody here could dig up enough evidence to show that their home made ammo is less lethal [great words to use in court b.t.w.] than 20 different products on the market now.
the prosecuting attorney would be best served looking at something else to try and hang you with.

a shoot is either justified or it ain't, it's pretty clear.

[mallen]

The only rounds I will ever use are the ones that are on sale. Nobody can pass up a good sale.

I like the way you think

IANAL, YMMV
I've come to a few conclusions for myself. First is that if I have to shoot defensively, in the aftermath the least of my concerns will be the ammo used. The bigger concern is just making sure I protect my family and self in a way that keeps me out of jail. Defend your life with whatever you've got. Cast boolits, JHPs, bug spray, or a friggin frying pan if that's all that's available. Survive first, everything else second.

Second, there's lots of folks here who have shown their cast boolits perform on game as well or better then any commercially produced ammo, so It can be done. However, testing your boolits and loads for terminal performance will be important. A lot of expensive engineering and development goes into the commercial defensive ammo. By the time you do repeated gel and chronograph testing to find the perfect alloy and mv to achieve optimal expansion and penetration you're in pretty deep for time and resources. A few boxes of the best commercial ammo money can buy is, what, $75? If you're going to commit to it do so because you enjoy the task and see it through all the way. If you're going to half-*** it, just buy your SHTF ammo instead.

I agree. but in my pursuit of making "the perfect bullet", at some point ill get to where mine are better than factory. This will be down the line obviously. when i have more knoledge, equipment and money

One of the biggest reasons I carry my own ammo is I have 3 times over the past 30 years run into factory ammo with NO powder in it. The live primers fired, but that was it. I have never once forgotten to put powder in a case, especially my self defense ammo, which I am super anal retentive about loading.

I think im going to start weighing my defense rounds.

[500MAG]

Not like I reload ammunition in the hopes that some moron will break into my home and give me a chance to shoot him. With that logic I would be afraid to stab him with the Bowie knife I made.

[mallen]

I'm pretty sure most everybody here could dig up enough evidence to show that their home made ammo is less lethal [great words to use in court b.t.w.] than 20 different products on the market now.
the prosecuting attorney would be best served looking at something else to try and hang you with.

a shoot is either justified or it ain't, it's pretty clear.

RIP ammo.

although, testing shows its not very good.

my idea behind self made defense ammo is customized to me and my gun, to have more accurate aim and not over or under penetrate. thus reducing risk to bystanders.

frankly im not sure they would be more "lethal". a bullet is a bullet is a bullet afterall. if mine transfer the same energy as factory. i dunno, maybe it expands better?

[dragon813gt]

Yes, I load and carry my own SD ammo. But I don't use cast. I use Hornady XTPs. I can't afford to practice w/ factory SD offerings. So I make the equivalent and can practice w/ them. I am not fan of Mr. Ayoob when it comes to this issue. I feel his position is doing us a disservice.

[jmort]

"I think with factory you do dismiss the onus of some "blame" in "determination of killing"."

"The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.
Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?
Lessler: Yes." ...

And what about the gun Fish carried with him? Remember the prosecution said that this is a weapon more powerful than what most police officers carry. ...

Michael Lessler, prosecutor: Mr. Fish shot him three time in the chest with this high powered gun, hollow point bullets and caused his death. That’s murder."

[62chevy]

Tell that to Harold Fish.

I'm surprised Fish didn't shoot the dogs.

[M-Tecs]

Some light reading

http://www.john-ross.net/comments.php

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...od-for-thought

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ighlight=Ayoob


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-defense/page2

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/sel...attacked-court

http://www.guns.com/2012/02/20/the-c...sonal-defense/

[Shiloh]

It is baseless nonsense that loading your own ammunition will get you in trouble.

Agreed.

I've loaded Hornady XTP's and used Hydra-Shok in home defense ammo.

Shiloh

[dakotashooter2]

My loads are general purpose. I may use them for shooting vermin around the farm, deer or for self defense if necessary. In other words they are not loaded with the specific purpose of killing humans..... Also remember that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. If he brings up that they are more powerfull I would ask that he prove it. He may plant the idea in the jury but when he can't prove it he invalidates the idea.

I liked the black tallon comment. Remember when they were deemed evil because of the jagged edges they produced? Now here we are in 2014 with the environmental push toward non lead bullets and the copper bullets which are used to replace that lead produce the exact same effect as the black tallons and nobody is making a peep.

In regards to what police carry, it often has nothing to do with the most efficient caliber/cartridge or power. Most officers would prefer the largest caliber they can handle. But departments want uniformity in their weapons and generally adopt a caliber that ALL personnel can handle. This often means the 9mm or 40 S&W to accommodate the smaller or less accomplished officers.

[shooter93]

I load my own self defense ammo with cast bullets. Virtually all my handguns get cast bullets only and I don't use hollow points. My self defense ammo is the same ammo I plink with. For handguns I don't load a defense load and a plinking or target load.

[dragon813gt]

Black talons are still sold. They just aren't black and are sold under the Ranger line. Every other manufacturer has bullets that perform exactly the same way.